The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

1. De-Risking the Decision to Leave the Corporate World as an Entrepreneur w/ Craig Follett

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You’ve got this idea.

Every day you show up to your job, do your work, and do it well.

But in the back of your mind, you can’t stop thinking about that thing that you want to do.

That thing that you know will change the world.

But in today’s world, up and quitting a job is scary. You’ve got responsibilities. You’ve got bills.

How do you de-risk the decision when it comes to setting out on your own as an entrepreneur?

You're listening to the Ivy Entrepreneur podcast from the Pierre L Morrisset Institute for Entrepreneurship at the Ivy Business School. In this series, I be entrepreneur and Ivy Faculty member Eric Janssen will anchor the session. Craig Follett is one of the most genuine people that I know. He went on to start universe before the company was ultimately acquired by ticket master in two thousand and fifteen. In this wide range and conversation, CRAIG SHARES WITH US his calculated founding story of universe, how hed de risked the decision and ultimately left his prestigious job at BCG to start the company. Since the acquisition, Craig has remained at the helm as universe as CEO, and, despite the fact that he's achieved financial freedom, he very much remains the same person today as he was when he founded the company almost a decade ago. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode as much as I enjoyed having this very candid conversation with the universe founder and CEO, Craig Foll it today. I wanted to get into your story, your entrepreneurial journey but I'd like to rewind back. If you can tell me, maybe you and ninety seconds, a little bit of few could summarize your own bio. Sure. So I grew up in Ontario. I studied engineering and business at Western and Ivy. Always knew I wanted to start a company. My my one grandfather was an entrepreneur and my other grandfather was an engineer, and so maybe I'm a little bit of a blend of both of them. And Yeah, so studied engineering, went to ivy, loved it and then thought that I wanted to become an investment banker. So I did an internship at credits weete. You know, did well, learned a bit, but I always knew I wanted to start a company. So I felt that what I was learning was not necessarily entirely applicable. So I wanted to change gears a bit. Switched over, worked for BCG for three years doing strategy consulting and then from their left BCG to launch universe, which we started as a sharing economy business, grew and pivoted into an event and ticketing business and then sold to live nation, ticket master, and that was you. Sold in twenty two thousand and fifteen, two thousand and fifteen. So rewind a little bit. Entrepreneurial inklings then came from your probably grandparents, your parents at all raise you entrepreneurially? I don't know how does an entrepreneur raised right like my so my dad's a lawyer and my mom is a is a great school teacher, and they always raised me to be very well rounded. So I did like a million extra curriculars, like played violin, played hockey, just like, but like across a wide spectrum of things. So they kept me very, very busy, and maybe that well roundedness was something that's related to entrepreneurship in a way. And definitely keeping busy as keeping busy juggling multiple priorities. Competitive Sports is one that seems to be coming up a lot people that play competitive sports. What did you play grown up? Played Hockey, skiing, delivered of soccer, but kind of gravitated more towards hockey. Okay, yeah, summer jobs. Were you deliver in steer's catalogs? Are you starting Your Long Care Business? What were you do? I was a lifeguard. Yeah, Great Gig. Yeah, as a young, great gay, the young adult to be outside, and so lifeguard and swimming instructor, so did a bit of that Nice. Okay, so your path out of school was not start the company right away, but you knew that you wanted to. Why didn't you start it right away? I think that I knew that I wanted to build experience, build connections and save a bit of money. You know, I don't come from a lot of family money or anything. So built a little bit of a nest egg or a safety net and then from there was able to launch and kind of a more formidable way. Just like wholeheartedly it. For you, would you do it differently or that was the right path for you? I think it was right path for me. It's probably different for each person and for me, and this one of my mentors describe BCG this way. BCG for me was like an extension of school in a way. So I kind of didn't do it right out of school, but it did it out of the school of consulting. So what did you learn in consulting that you think or did? Do you think consulting, directly or indirectly, attributed to the success that you've had with universe? I think that it definitely helped. I don't think it's the only thing, because I think consulting is obviously very different from entrepreneurship, but I think consulting as a great learning environment. Right. So you rotate through a variety of different cases in a rapid pace and what I personally would do is, at the end of each case I would reflect like okay, based on this experience with a client, is there a business I would start? You know, I know something new about an industry or an inefficiency in a business. What are some entrepreneurial solutions that would resolve those? So I kind of tried to keep that hat on and then as I progressed through BCG and was able to prove myself as a strong performer, I was able to choose a little bit more closely the projects I wanted to be on, and so I got to choose projects...

...that were more in the tech sector, doing like due diligences and MNA of tech startups for other companies, and then I was more directly looking at startups and kind of interviewing the entrepreneurs to create strategies based on start up landscapes. So eventually it did directly kind of help. And then there's all sorts of skills that you build like writing decks or, you know, presence and clients or what have you. So when it came time to raise capital or do a pitch deck, you were yeah, I could whip up a pitch deck and raise capital pretty well. You were. You were well trained. Sometimes, at least in my own experience, it's hard. It's hard to if you're in it to learn. Did you feel like you were doing the learning so that you could then eventually apply this to the company one day, or were you just trying to soak up all the learning for learning sake? At that point? Did you know what the learning was for, or were you is happy to be in it? But I think I was a little bit of both, but more so just happy to be in it. Like I knew that I was learning all sorts of things that would be applicable and I wouldn't know what they are at the time. You know, I might be learning something in one project or from one manager that would be relevant later on and I wouldn't realize it. So there was some deliberate like okay, reflection, I want to start a company at some point. Is this helping that? Or what have I learned? But there was more of an Osmosis, and one of the things I realized from my time at credit sweee. When I was at credit sweee in the internship, I sort of felt like, you know what, I don't really think like I'm I'm learning anything here, and then I got back to school and I was working on projects and I realized that that point, only only at that point, wow, I've actually learned a lot here, like I'm an excel wizard now, like, and I didn't really realize it's like boiling a frog. Put a frog and some cold water, turn up the temperature slowly and the frog never jumps out. And I didn't really realize that at credit swee until after I had left, and so that was a realization that, you know, has helped me since then. I realized that even now I'm still learning stuff. It may not feel like it every day, but I know that I am. And you know, when you change context then you might realize it. Right. There's a saying something to the effect of and I'm paraphrasing entirely, but when you're in school you forget what you're you don't really realize how much you're learning, but you'll realize it when you go home with Thanksgiving or home at Christmas. Yes, and you sort of reinsert yourself into the environment where people aren't doing it every day. You're like, wow, okay, I've actually I realized now, when I see the baseline of people who aren't in this intense learning environment, actually how much I have learned exactly. So fast forward a little bit then, when you did BCG for three years, not an atypical inflection point. There's usually like do I want to continue down the consulting path? Do I want to do my Mba? Do I want to reset somewhere else? So you chose, at a certain ext to certain point, to leave BCG and start your own company. MMM, did you? There's two different ways that we've had guests on talk about this. They say, I have an inkling, I quit now. I'm going to go work on the inkling, or I have an inkling, I'm going to explore it, I'm going to test, I'm going to validate some things and then when the time is right, once I've got enough validation, I'm going to leave. So was it one of those or something different entirely? I think it's something different. Maybe a little bit of a hybrid, but maybe it's kind of a unique perspective. Let's see. So, up on three years, have an inkling. Know that I'm interested in it. But basically what I did as I set a set of hurdles for myself. So I said, okay, first I need an idea. Check. Okay, now I need a cofounding team. Check in that cofounding team I need a technical cofound or a CTO for my particular business. I needed that check. All right. Now we need an agreement sharehold agreement that, you know, make sure that we're all in it to win it, we're in it for the long term, we're all vested. Check. We have kind of a safety net there. And then we've all put, you know, money into the bank. Check. And basically, I set all these hurdles and, to be honest, I define the hurdles kind of at the beginning and I didn't really expect that we would go through them all. I thought that it was going to drop off after on a hurdle three or four or whatever. And so that approach let me kind of go through and, you know, validate that this is something to launch into. With that being said, you know use the word validation in retrospect we did very little validation of the idea before we launched into it. We just launched into it. So and from a customer at helme and standpoint or product standpoint, we just took a big leap of faith. But I really looked to D risk things on the team front and on the sort of Structure Front, and I think that that created a stability and tenacity that allowed the idea to eventually validate itself after lot, after leaving got it. It's so an interesting hybrid. I was going to I was going to point that out, that you you want to make sure that the team was right, everybody was in it, but didn't not get out there and talk to customers and sell product and validate it that way at all. Yeah, interesting that.

That's a learning right. I think that that's not necessarily the most advisable way, but to launch into it is. You know, there's something to be said about just launching into it. Yeah, but I didn't want to launch into the team dynamic. I knew that one of the main reasons that business fail is, you know, team stability and things like that. Yeah, okay, so you had the core team, you would set up a bunch of these validation check points that you wanted to be sure of, the internal validation checkpoints. Maybe we're in creating a new term here. I like it. Yeah. So then you, at a certain point, gave your notice to BCG. HMM, said I've got this thing going to go and that they have to be encouraging of that. I know a lot of friends that have been a BCG have gone on to start successful company. So they were they waging. They were very encouraging, yet nice. They like to put the BCG logo next to successful. That's right. They start putting me in all the recruiting decks and yeah, you know, cre you should come work BCG. Come Work here, you'll you know, you can become an entrepreneur. Yeah, okay. So what was the original idea? Than that, you ended up leaving BCG for. So the original idea was a sharing economy market place. So think of AIRBNB, but if we rewind to two thousand and eleven, there were a whole series of fragmented sharing economy businesses. So you know, a market place for dog walkers and a market place for handyman and a market place for tools and a market place for vacation rentals. AIRBNB, and our vision was we want to create a market place that spans all of these verticals, because there's a lot of smaller ones that will only survive and thrive if we can create trust from other verticals to pollenate them, because really the barrier to inviting someone into your home to, you know, Cook a meal or to walk your dog is you need to trust them, and some of these verticals are a little less frequent. So we launched this Rizontal, the vision of which was that the world is becoming a little too virtual and we wanted to increase human connections in the real world and do do so in kind of an organic way, where you know your people, that you're living within your condo building and you're interacting with them over sort of sharing time and space and activities and and so forth. So when you say launched horizontal, you weren't. You didn't say we are going to be a sharing a call the the new dog walking APP or website. You said generally this Pew to Peer Marty, places lacking trust. We can be the place where all of these things live because we're going to have trust amongst the peers. Is that exactly yeah, so we didn't. We didn't launched like the dog walking market place. We we, you know, thought okay, the product is maybe a little similar if you're hiring a dog walker or babysitter or etc. The flow, the user experience, you know, the payment processing, everything is kind of shared. So let's leverage to that across verticals. And so we launched this extremely broad market place at the beginning. Yeah, oh my gosh. So where did you even start with that nut like market place and unproven, peered, not maybe not unproven peer to peer, but like not pew to peer, of where it is today. So where, where did you even go? You've quit your job, you've got a business plan, presumably. Did you write a business plan? We had yet wrote a bus his plan and could BCG fashion of voice and variety, fashion and kind of you know, quit our jobs and then started building a prototype and then started, I guess, threefold building a prototype. So product building leads, so very stealth mode, generating leads of potential, sharing economy, supply side leads. So dog walkers, babysitters, people who might share items, people who might offer cooking classes, and then also raising around of capital. So we looked in that sort of idea phase, team and idea phase to raise this seed round. That would last us and, you know, get us to a phase of traction. How many people originally on the team? There were three of us, three full time, all full time. Nice. Yeah, that's key. Yep, getting people to up jump in full time. Okay, so you've got your business plan. Did you have a revenue model, an idea of a revenue model in the beginning? Yeah, we definitely did. We thought, you know, we're going to be processing payments and we'll take a cut of that. Will, you know, have a sort of a commission model? And then we thought maybe there will be other revenue streams in the future around sort of data and so forth and advertising and other things. Don't know yet, but don't know yet. But our primary revenue model was going to be this commission revenue model. Got It and you, you were the destination, or you'd be the overthetop sort of layer on other people's peer to peer market places, or you were the destination. We were vertically integrated, we were the destination. We interestingly, we had some vertical sharing economy companies come to us and say hey, you know, can you be a layer on top of these other verticals. But no, we were. We were sort of vertically integrated. We were processing the payments and the destination to discover these sharing economy listings and to share them. Okay,...

...yeah, and I mean we know the answer. Universe ended up pivoting, but was it? Did it work? Some things work, some things didn't. So we launched in January of two thousand and twelve and we had built up all these leads and we, you know, defined this pretty fully baked product, like it was not a typical like MVP, minimum viable product, as you would say. So we launched and we built up a mass of supply side leads, so just a ton of items and babysitters and dog walkers and activities, cooking classes, Yoga sessions, you know, tens of thousands of these supply side listings. But what we saw then is that there were sort of some crickets on the demand side. So we had all these listings and no one was, relatively speaking, no one was booking them. So we had kind of a liquidity problem or it or demand side problem. Okay, so interest from the people running these peer to peer Marie places, some sort of partnership or something where they were listing them on your site. Yep, and everything was launched and working, but no one is actually buying. So what what next? And did you raise me? Had you raise money at that point? At this point we'd raised seven hundred and Fiftyzero dollars. Okay, so you raised some significant yeah, seed funding based on the idea, initial concept. Yeah, dig into that for a second, because without market validation, and this is a challenge that a lot of my students or other entrepreneurs come to me with, how much, how much validation do I need to have in order to start executing or to raise capital? And so you add, guess, had a pretty good pedigree, Ivy Grad, investment banker, consultant, leaving to start this thing, but didn't have a market validation. So how did those yeah, pitches go? Yeah, it was an interesting phase, right, and so I reflect on this, it's a different style of pitch when your pre revenue and your idea phase. And so people were very much so investing in the team and the idea and the business plan and the vision and the excitement, and that's what they were they were interested in. So I think you know the pedigree, you know the experience it. You know, investment, banking and BCG, engineering and IV and all these things, as well as the others on my team as well. That was really compelling for people. So how did you when did you decide to go raise money? How soon after you quit or left your other job did you go raise money? Not Immediately. The three of us we you know, full first of all, we didn't take a salary for like a year and a half, so that was kind of investment in of itself. But we each put in, call it ten grand, and we kind of focused on building up the prototype first and we did that for a couple months and then at that point we went and set out to raise that that round. Got It. And how did you find those contacts? So a lot through the through our personal networks, so people we'd worked with, friends of family, kind of just branching out and then it it kind of just had a bit of a ripple effect, you know, we bring in someone and then they'd go one degree removed and then the next thing you know we have the formercy of feat Ferrari who's investing, and that was not a direct connection. That was a friend of a friend of a friend, type trash pretty cool though, if you can get someone, at least from what I've seen, if you can get an anchor in early enough like that, that gives you some sort of sexy cred in the beginning. So that's cool. Yeah, he was. He was one of the later ones to come in that round, but it helped in future rounds, that's for sure. Yea. So, so then you raised and this was from how many people this was. It was a it was a lot of people in retrospect. So we had about thirty people in that round. Wow, yeah, wow. So and one of the ways that we did that as we raised what's known as a convertible note. So with that it sort of simplified the paperwork and simplified the discussions because we didn't need to really deliberate with each person what is the valuation of this thing, because they we have no traction. Literally, we basically deferred the valuation to the next round and we said we're going to give you a discount on the next round of funding, and so that was a pretty simple, you know, straightforward conversation. And that was the convertible note. So is in the form of a loan that they could convert to equity on the future round. Correct. Yeah, okay, okay. So you've got money in the bank, you've got a prototype, more than prototype, you launch, you go live. That's right, you built it. They did not come. What next? Yeah, so what next? I mean half of the audience came, right. We had the suppliers, but not the buyers. And so what came next is we had our a lot of stick to Itiveness, a lot of tenacity and we said we're going to make this work, and so we focused on too full we looked at some marketing approaches and we looked at some product approaches. On the marketing side, we started to create campaigns around what we called theme weeks, which would engage people on different theme. So we had a, you know, a food week and we had a caffeine week and we had a sports week and we would...

...engage you know, we're in Toronto, so we focused on the Toronto community and bring them into activities on the on these sort of marketing side of things, and then on the product side we started to kind of growth hack things. So we focused on building product that would give tools to our supply side organizers. So the Dog Walker, the babysitter, the the personal chef to invite people to their listening or to bring their network in, and so we built a lot of social network integrations with facebook and twitter and Google, and then we provided those tools to the event organizers so that they would bring their, you know, couple thousand people in their network onto the platform form and that really started to pick up. So we that was kind of the next phase and we're like, Oh, this is this is something, things are happening. Yeah, so get into the details here. When when the first when the site goes live and people aren't showing up? Who called the meeting? Well, there were no one really called a meeting. It was kind of we were meeting all the time. We were just in the office all the time, around a ping pong table, I should mention. So that was our desk and you know, we had stand up meetings every morning and you know, we were just meeting all the time. Try so asking, is it working? Yeah, is it working? Is it working? Is it working? And it was, I mean was. Half of it was, yes, but the user side wasn't growing your per your plan, I would assumed it. Did you have an I guess, at how quickly you had hoped it was going to grow? Yeah, certainly we did. We had, you know, a lot of projections that we really had hoped it would be a lot bigger, a lot faster. We really had a lot of tenacity and we almost didn't really ask that question right away. We just sort of stuck to it and had to faith that we were going to make it work and, you know, kept plugging away and we started to develop some traction that we thought was looking good. We'd go out and pitch investors for our next round at this point where, you know, maybe six months into this this phase, and then we started getting feedback that this traction is not enough. Come back, and so we had a lot of stick to ofness. We just sort of stuck through it until we started to find her footing a little bit got it. So if it wasn't one meeting, then it was a series of meetings over a series of days, weeks, months, whatever. But how did you decide what to do to grow? I think listening. At this point we're in a validation phase, so listening to the customers was big at this point. And so how did we decide what to do? We, you know, as mentioned, we were working on these theme weeks and we were working in the product and the theme weeks were focused a little bit more in activities, basically small events, so cooking classes, Yoga sessions, what have you. How did you start to get and let nitty gritty here on the specifics. But so theme weeks came from somebody. So at a certain point these had to I don't know, you came up with it or you guys were texting each other late at night or like morning stand up, someone says theme weeks. Like how did you either have the discipline or the creativity to throw those ideas up on a board? And then how did you pick the one ultimately to focus on? How did we we did we to be honest, we could have had a lot more focus. So we had. How did we pick? I'd say we had a process where we would look at this sort of wheel of marketing channels and activities and we would do something in every single spoke of the wheel and one of them would stick and we you know, at this particular one was the theme weeks, but we had all theb like a hundred other ones that probably we could have vetted in advance and maybe screened out, but that was our process. So you were just throwing a bunch of stuff out there during some spaghetti at the wall and seeing what stuck, trying the all at once, and then, oo, theme week seems to be doing something. Let's just do more of what seems to be working. That's right, cool, yeah, I mean it's interesting, right, there's no, it's not like there's off it's not always these big team strategic off site meetings where you lock yourself in a room for two days and come up with the ideas. It's like in the early days, you're just trying anything and everything and there's no real doesn't have to be rigger necessarily or process around it could. Could it have been helpful? Maybe? Yeah, I think, especially as a first time entrepreneur. Right. So you you kind of learned by doing, and then maybe next time around I think we'd be we'd be able to use some intuition and be more to decisive and know a little bit more in advance what kind of spetty sticks to the wall and which doesn't. Got It. Okay, so back to where we were. So you're doing theme works, theme weeks, you're getting things going, users are starting to come, you've got some traction. You started went to raise some money, but they said need more traction, so keep going. Yeah, so we found that the theme weeks were effective because we could go get one activity organizer or we now would call an event organizer and they would bring, you know, tens or maybe eventually a hundred attendees and that was a lot more demand side generation than bringing on one dog Walker who maybe brings zero customers or one customer and you need to generate...

...all their demand. So we found that that worked really well. We then found that we were having a lot of traction kind of the food space. So we had a lot of food events on Universe, food food event organizers, and then we got a celebrity chef from top chef Canada. He threw his birthday party on universe. It was five bucks a ticket, three hundred people and they were all food he's because it was it was literally his birthday party, and so he had all this other chefs and food community people and now we had were like this is great, we have this base of food event organizers. From there we went to the stops night market, which was a very popular food festival in honest deed's alleyway, and got that event and then that that was kind of a turning point because in that one event we eclipsed all of our sales from all of these other efforts by bringing on this this one little food festival with maybe twozo people. Can you elaborate on what was the pivot from sharing economy two events? So you were yeah, you had some traction on to that peer to peer side, but then what was the what was the moment where you made the switch, like the the full switch, or even the beginning? So you're talking about your first food event, but at the time you were talking about you were trying to Avite dog walkers. Yeah, where, where did you get? When did the first event opportunity come up? It was a little bit of a gradual thing. So that you know, it's it's hard to say what was the first. The first you could define the first as the first cooking class, right. Maybe that was when it switched, when we had, you know, ten or fifteen or twenty people learning to make no jokey actually in our office. We offered our office as a venue and maybe that's the switch. Or maybe it was when we started to get into these larger events where they needed, you know, qr codes that could be scanned on site and so forth. Maybe that was the switch product wise, but it was only until later that we focused exclusively on events and cut out the more purest sharing economy, things like items and skills. Right, when I when I think peer to peer, and maybe this is wrong, but when I think peer to peer Offen, think one to one. HMM, like you've got something, I want it. I'll give you dollars if you trust we trust each other. Right. But then to go to a cooking class, I see how it would happen. I've got skills, I'm a chef. I want people to come pay me and I will share you the skills. But now it's not one too one, it's one too many. Yeah, and to your point, the chef brought ten people with him. It was like, Oh, this is more interesting than just one person at a time. Yeah, we viewed that, I guess you could describe it maybe as peer to peers. Right, we would have it. We had to peer to peer, one to one, dog Walker to dog or dog owner. But then we also view the sharing economy, or part of it, as maybe instead of going to a restaurant, maybe you want to go attend a dinner party. In your condo building and maybe it's with strangers, but maybe it's with strangers that you can trust because they are, you know, a couple degrees removed and you have you can see that they've done other things within the sharing economy that are proof points that there are are trustworthy person so we viewed that as part of the fabric of of the sharing economy, which is maybe a beyond the typical definition, which is more one to one. Yeah, got it. So now you find yourself almost as a like. When did you, when would you define yourself as a ticketing company? Then when was that swhich we still try to not to find ourselves as ticket in company. We still talk about it as a market place as can. I still try to maintain some of that ethos and but the switch away more fully from the sharing economy wasn't until maybe a year or two after that. So at this point were facilitating this market place for activities, which are now becoming events, as well as these one to one interactions, and our philosophy and hope was that we would have these people run these activities and events, it would generate demand, they would come into the system and we would cross sell them into other categories. They would start, you know, hiring that dog walker or lending out their ladder into their their network. So that was the grand vision was we would use this as a way of generating demand that would unlock this massive sharing economy. Vision. Got It and that started to play out. We started to generate a lot of demand. It didn't all convert into the supply side or the or the sharing economy side, and we were resource constrained. You know, we had raised at the end of the day, over the course of time we ended up raising two and a half million, but that's not a ton in terms of trying to build out the Ebay for sharing economy or the Amazon for sharing economy. That's you know, we were sort of looking to build sixty four air BNB's. We had eight categories and eight subcategories below each category, so we had sixty four of these subcategories and in order to really do justice to that, I think we needed probably some more capitalization and we didn't have that. So, you know, the lack of resources created focus and...

...forced us to focus on what was really really working really well, and that, for us, was this new approach to facilitating events and helping events, event organizers market their event. So was there ever? was there ever a moment where you kind of drew a line in the sand and said this is a this is a pivot, we're pivoting, or was this this the natural there was a well, it would. It was definitely a bit of a gradual approach, as as described, but there was a moment that was a bit of a moment, which was we listening to our customer feedback how to feature request. People wanted to be able to embed their ticket sales so in their own websites and their own websites, and so we had two ways of doing it. We had kind of the quick way, but we had a more advanced way where the person would stay on that external website after the purchase. And we thought, you know, let's let's going on a limb and let's try to build the more advanced one because it'll be a differentiator. So we did that and in doing so we built it for one half of the market place, to make it quicker to get to market. We built it for the activities only and not the service us. And so we built that, we launched it, people loved it and then the next step was, okay, now we need to build this for services, because that's that was our approach with all product. We had to have it applied to all verticals. So that was sort of the natural next step and at that point we took a step back and said, you know what this feels like. We're building two companies here. This is slowing us down, and at that point we had a lot of Sushi lunches. Are My cofounders and I. We always kind of met over Sushi lunches or Sushi dinners, and we took a step back and had to basically rally the cofounder team and then later the investors and other stakeholders around. Okay, we are focusing on this and we are shutting down the rest. And that was a that was a one of the best decisions we ever made, because it's sped everything up and made it much simpler to describe. It's not this sharing economy sort of conceptual thing anymore. It's a very tangible we are an event market place. You can bed your your ticket sales. It is much more crystal clear and from there we saw a really big inflection point. So what you what year was that? When did you make that change? That would have been try remember. I think it was. It was two thousand and thirteen or two thousand and fourteen. So how many years in? That was three years in. Yeah, that W was. I. There's probably two and a half years in. Yeah, since alling a long time. That's a long time. Two and a half years or three years on the same I dea with like same original business model. That's a that's a long time. Yeah, it was. Yeah, okay. So then you then you switch over to becoming a not, let's say, I don't want and I'm not going to call you ticket in company, but you were effectively selling people, were running events and selling tickets to people on their own websites. That's right. So did you face any backlash or have any fears yourself about then competing with some of the big boys? Because if you if you are, if you were not a ticketing company but could be perceived as a competitor to the big players, you're in a whole different world. Having been in the live event business, it's not a business that's right generally people can just jump into. There's a whole shark pool that you've got to learn. Yeah, it's a very competitive space. So how did you found yourself suddenly swimming with sharks. Yeah, it's anyway how that went. Definitely. Yeah, so, you know, that was one of the that was some of the feedback, you know, from co founders and from investors is like, you know, but should we really do this? This is such a competitive space, and you know, it was the answer was like well, yes, we're listen either we're listening to our customers. This is what they love our product for this we're listening to our employees, to our team, just like listening to all the stakeholders, and it was a pretty natural thing. We'd already kind of moved into it almost by accident. We started out with these activities, which graduated to larger and larger activities, which became events, and the next thing you know, we're in the world of ticketing and an end events, kind of by accident. Okay, so this is now. You said two thousand and fourteen. What two thousand and thirteen or fourteen? Two thousand thirteen fourteen. So what next? You focused on? You found your, call it, niche within the sharing economy that was working. Did you pick a niche within events that you wanted to focus on? We, you know, we felt we had strengthen the food sector, food events, so we kind of focused on that. We were definitely general mission like. We didn't have any reserve seating functionality. So we were really focused on these small, you know, indie events, ranging from that cooking class or a letter press, you know class, up to a food festival. That's kind of the content that we focused on initially. But then that shift it because we found that our product was applicable for different types of content. was applicable for technology conferences and you know, that may...

...sound different than a food festival, but the underlying sort of technology was was pretty similar. And then our main focus of differentiated should at this time was the embeddability. We realize that no one else had this. This is something that's super unique. People really want this and that that made it easy to sell. That was the unique functionality at that time. That was yeah, because typically if someone goes to purchase a ticket, you'd advertise it on your website but when it comes time to actually purchasing the ticket, you click the link, it's going to put you over to ticket master or event bright or somebody else exactly, and you could keep the experience within their own interesting. So did you find yourself at a certain point taking business from those other companies? Yeah, definitely, we we I mean we weren't competing with ticket master, totally different scale, but we found that our largest source of kind of Lee Jen or or customers that we could get were from coming from event right interesting. So people that just exclusively the main reason they would come to you is just for that invidibility. We want to do the same thing, but we want to keep it in our own experience and your sales see and hammered that. We just hammered that. Yeah, we found, you know, why did people like this inbdibility and just really hammered that home and kept enhancing it and improving it. Cool. So, if we peel back some of the layers here, I want to get in, get in the hood, get under the hood to business model, unit economics, things, because when you changed, when you repositioned what you were as a company, what you're moving into, did that require that you change Your Business Model? Did the Unit Economics Change? Did you have to hire more people, fire people, open offices? What changes did that force on you? Didn't really create personnel changes, but yeah, I mean we and the business or the revenue model was relatively similar. So it was still taking a commission of the sales. But we then crystallize that and and looked. We now knew more directly, okay, these are our competitors, there's these very this event competitors out there and let's align our pricing to reflect our differentiation and ability to compete and make it easy for the customer to choose between these different offerings. So we adjusted our pricing, but the revenue model remained pretty similar. On the pricing side, did you how did you figure out what to price it at? You were x Investment Bank or consultant? Was this a ridiculous, insane excel model, or how did you figure out what you should price it was not at there. We wanted to keep it really simple. So we basically looked at the landscape and said, okay, we're in a price relative to this and and kind of go from there. And we knew that we weren't. We were, you know, we were smaller, we had some differentiators, but we had a lot less features. Right, so we, you know, would price similar to our competitors. Now we're, you know, we're able to kind of have a little bit more room and add more value and and you know, capture some of the value. But then it was sort of like let's price competitively compared to these these other offerings. Can often be as simple as that. We talked about pricing recently and it's look at what people are pricing at today. So who are your what you consider your competition? How are they pricing? What value do they bring and where do you want to position yourself relative to them? What perception do you want to give? So you are you a higher quality person or high quality company or service relative to what's already out there? So maybe you put a preview on it, but then also making that jive with your overall business. So if we price it at this, can we make that work with our overall revenue model, cover our overhead? Those sorts of things. Where you guys worried about that? Or were you one of those venture funded companies that investors said, like just get show usage, show the people are using this. Like worry about that and worry less about the unit economics and whether this is a profitable company? So we were worried about the unit economics, but less so, you know, we were worried about runway and our unit economics and we knew that if we had unit economics that are favorable, will just need to scale it to a certain point in order to become profitable. So we were more focused at that phase on the unit economics that are we bringing are we able to generate, you know, leads, convert those leads into event organizers, have them sell tickets and take our fee on those tickets and make more money on that than it coused us to bring in the event organizer in the first place? So we kind of focused on that, on that engine, and once we knew we had an engine for that, that was that was what we were into. How did you think about building out the early stage sales team, because this is something that a lot of early companies struggle with, and I know the folks on your team that we're a charge of that having interacted with them before, and I think I may have even met with them in San Francisco. Hmm, was a really nice running machine, at least from an external perspective. So how did you how did you buuild that out? I mean, there's a lot of dimensions. We could talk about it right...

...think there's the the structure of the team. How do you structure a sales team. There is the sales process. I think that our focus at first was let's get that sales process going, so the way that we defined it as we and then we applied this approach beyond sales to anything. Where as a CO founder we would take on something ourselves, we get our hands dirty. We would, in this case, be emailing potential perspective event organizers one by one and then we'd find waste automate this and then we'd find ways to hand that off to people in the team. So that was kind of approach with everything. But in this case we're talking about sales. So yeah, we just start cold and leaning people and then following up with them manually, you know from our you know, Google APPs, Gmail accounts, and just, you know, repeatedly doing that and then learning that we can do this little bit more systematically and more and more systematically and kind of take it from there. And then we started to grow the sales team and brought in some people who had some of whom Sebastian. When I met he I met as a client. So I was pitching a client and he was running a St Patrick's Day event and I said, you know, this guy he's an Ivy Grad and he's a family keeping the families an Ivy Grad. He is a promoter, he's running events and he's working for a telecom company in the tech sector. I you know, I think you'd make a really great sales person. So we brought him in, managed to sell him and in he came aboard. And so we brought on some people of that nature and then we started to enable them with these these tools and automation to drive that Pipeline Nice. So then fast forward to ultimately, when do you get the call or when do you pursue ticket master? Yeah, so fast forward to that. There's some interesting junctures and steps in there. So along the way were we're raising vc so we're pitching vcs. We've got some interest and in parallel we decide at this time just to recap or universe with two eyes. At this point. All right, he said, you remember that. Yeah, universe with two eyescom and initially that was to represent the eyes. Were two people too, little heads and bodies meeting real life, one to one, kind of you know it, real person interaction. But this, you know, it was kind of a if you're telling someone where do you work? Or what's the name of the product? You always had to say universe with two eyes, and it didn't always look the most trustworthy. So we decided, okay, let's let's find a way to see if we can buy UNIVERSECOM. Mean you tell you this because this is part of the juncture and raising capital and everything that that was a bit of a catalyst. So we found a really clever way to buy universecom by doing a lease with a right to buy. So we contacted anonymously the prior owner of universe with one eyecom, and expressed an interest to buy this, negotiated a price and and negotiated a structure where we could pay them a monthly payment, Lisea, but we had a contract where we could pay them, you know, a bigger chunk and then own it out right. And in the meantime the domain was parked at an escrow agent. So an ascrow agent hold it and if we defaulted on our contract, it would go back to the seller and if we exercise our contract it would go to us, the buyer, and so this allowed us, being a little bit capital constrained, to not throw a whole chunk of capital at this random donamic domain name but to have the usage of it for, you know, a nominal monthly fee. So you did actually actively start to use it. I mean you had because you had it in the escrow account. You negotiated this deal. These are now you rebranded. We rebranded as universe with oneeyedcom, and that was another inflection point because now, you know, is easy word of mouth for our customers describe, for us to describe. It was more trustworthy. It kind of made a splash in the industry. Industry is going out, you know, there must be something here. How, how are these these guys buying this expensive top tier domain name? And so that kind of reinvigorated some of these VC conversations. And parallel to the VC conversations, we had a tikening company reach out to us, who we started to speak with. They were interested in buying us, and so we had, you know, these conversations and they were interesting, but then we thought maybe we should let's broaden this out a little bit. See what would this look like if we were to, you know, bring in some of the bigger players, and we reactivated some of our partnership conversations that we'd previously had. So earlier in the journey of universe, we had actively began partnership conversations with some of the larger event players and even Google and Ebay and stuff, to genuinely structure partnerships. You know, maybe they could refer event organizers to us, maybe we could be a do it yourself event market place that would complement their other businesses. And so we reactivated those conversations and dot...

...dot dot sold to live nation and there's you know, that's an interesting story and of itself. That that negotiation, that process, that was very exciting. Yeah, that's so. Can you give me, just rewinding for a second to the domain, give me a feel for like what what is a top tier domain self, for even rangewise, just so the people have an idea. Rangewise, you know we're talking six figures plus six figures guests for okay. Yeah, to the extent that you're willing to share those negotiations or conversations with live nation might be interesting. I always say that businesses don't generally get bought, they get sold. Not all the time that someone may just tap you on the shoulder out of the blue that you've never had a conversation with before. and Say I'm going to buy you for X, Y Z multiple of revenue. It's usually some conversation that had built over time and guess what, what we said we were going to do, we did it. You know, we've got traction. We service a need that you don't currently service, being self serve ticketing. So is there anything that you can share about those conversations? Yeah, other I can't share everything, but there are certainly some interesting insights that they can share. We did have inbound interest and so that's what sparked it and that inbound interest helped us in the negotiations to demonstrate that there's multiple parties who are interested in this and why have we started these conversations? But then we did brought in a doubt and we, you know, we were actively involved in selling it right. And one of the pivotal moments was we discovered that live nation was very interested in this thing called distributed commerce. So they wanted to be able to sell, let's say, a drake ticket on spotify or to be able to sell a blue Jay's ticket on ESPNCOM. And that was an not home moment, because our key differentiator is embedable tickets, embed inbedable ticketing, and so that was a synergy we were able to pitch. So it was sort of that was something that really resonated. And to make this repeatable for other entrepreneurs, you know, the process I would recommend is, you know, if you look at, you know, investor relations documents, you can look at the strategy documents of perspective acquires see what their top, top level strategies are and if you have something that can align to it, then that is something that you can work on. And so that made the the conversation just very interesting for for Michael Rapino, and it was that paired up with a best in class, you know, do it yourself self serve ticketing company, which complimented very well ticket master, which does much, much larger stuff. So you kind of had this dovetail of this longer tail ticketing company plus this technology synergy of embeddable ticketing, instant distributed commerce. Could I call you on it, because you just called yourself a ticketing company. So when you were when you were meeting, at this point we're taking out, when you were meeting with live nation or with with ticket mastered, we were you actively calling yourself a ticketing company. For those conversations we were yeah, okay, yeah, all right. So today, then, your post acquisition, you are still act very actually involved. HMM. What's going on today that universe? Yeah, today it's super exciting. You know, one of the reasons that I've remained is it's remained highly entrepreneurial, so a lot of autonomy and microropinos very good at having his acquisitions run that way. That's kind of a philosophy that he has. And so what's new is we've been expanding internationally quite dramatically. So we've been opening up offices and London and Australia and now Hong Kong, and we've internationalized the product into many, many currencies and I'll turnative payment methods, so non credit card payment methods, and languages, and we're really excited to see events all around the world using universe. Nice. So I've been you and I knew each other from from the event business. We know each other maybe before that, but we like started to interact more when we were yeah, and the event business. There's a lot of travel for both of us. Yep, I think you do a really good job of embracing it and maybe it's not the we don't see each other all the time, so I'm living vicariously through your instagrams. Yeah, but I think you do a good job of enjoying the journey, because you could view it as I have to do all this travel for work, or I have the opportunity to see the world through work. That is that matters. So just an observation. You do a really good job of that. So you still travel a lot for work? Yeah, you know, a good amount, and I enjoy the travel. You know, we get to travel to great cities, great events and, you know, with great people, and so I think that that that makes a difference. It's different than the consulting travel where you're, you know, headed every week to some place that you may not be as excited about. So yeah,...

...it's I think it's some of those dimensions Nice. Has Anything personally changed for you since the acquisition? Because that is the dream of so many right you start this thing, this thing is working, you get tapped on the shoulder out of the blue from this giant company and they buy your company and then you sail off into the sunset. So what is what is changed, if anything, from the acquisition for you personally? I mean the business is a lot different and so that makes it a different personal sort of set up. We're now almost seventy people and at the time of the acquisition we were, you know, about twenty five, and so that's a very different business and it's a different sort of management style and we're much more international now, and so that has changed sort of my day to day. That's it's definitely more around leading these these people in setting up structures and enabling this organization, so that that's a bit different. Yeah, I mean personally enjoying the travel. It's a it's a different environment. You know, you know not. I guess a key difference is I I'm not spending my time out raising money from vcs anymore that before selling, you know, we were always looking to extend or runway and accelerate that next phase of growth and so a big part of my role was going out and building relationships with potential VC's and partners and raising that capital. Now we are, as part of live nation, the largest life entertainment company in the world. We have access to that larger balance sheet and so it's less so around going out and pitching for that it's demonstrating success. Can more continuously and kind of being enabled by that, and so that freeze up time to focus on other things within kind of running the business. Can you comment on your relative level of contentment or happiness or anything like that, because I think that's some it's easy to get caught up in the idea that more it's going to lead to more. But now being at a point where, I mean, you're you're not sailing into the sunset for all of time, but you're in a good position, has it changed your baseline level of happiness or passion or drive or, you know, are there weeks where you just say I don't want to do it this week, as it changed anything like that? Yeah, no, that's that's a good question and I think starting a company and then selling a company, that was something that was on literally my bucket list when I graduated. I created this bucket list and I've been ticking some things off on it and so it was certainly it was this great accomplishment. But in terms of levels of happiness, just answer your question, I think that I was happy before starting universe. I was then very happy after starting it, during kind of the building out of universe, including when we were taking no salary and I think I'm like a similar level of happy now. So I think that the success in the you know, the you know, wealth creation isn't not isn't something that necessarily generates the happiness. I think it's something that comes kind of from within. With that being said, and this is something more after starting universe, so, you know, working in consulting, I would, you know, make decent money and then maybe go out for a meal and obviously the food tasted good. But I always tell people that after starting universe, you know, each dollar that I made and when I if I made food or went out for dinner, food just tasted better because I, you know, I created it. It felt more fulfilling. So there was kind of a difference there. But I'm I was, I you know, I'm happy after selling the company. I'm happy. I was happy before as well. Yeah, you honestly seem like the same. You haven't changed really at all at you have not. I hope it. I hope. I hope say in much the same guy from before during after. Yeah, so that's great. I think it's a testament to your character. You have a good sense of what's important to you and I think you're least my perception of your instagram life is like that. Actually is your life. You know, you're generally a you are a happy person. You you, yeah, seem fulfilled and you're doing it right. You doing it. Thank you. Yeah, some quick ones to as we wrap up here. Is there anything, if you could think back to twenty year old Craig, is there any advice that you'd give to yourself back in the day? I would say do do what you love, do more of what you love, double down on that a little bit more. I think if there's something that you don't like doing, then stop doing it and maybe travel more. I think I certainly traveling, you know, a good chunk now. I traveled back then as well, but I think I would say travel even more. That's a piece of advice that I would you give. Is just something that you loved back then, that you were like, God, I wish I would have done. There's that thing that I wish I would have done more like there's something specific. Think traveling a little bit. That's one piece. I had some opportunities to go to some countries and,...

...as like God, I don't know, I gotta work on this or I got this going on and kind of deferred it and it's just like no, look looking back, it's like should just go for it. So and generally I did go for it, but I would say go for it even more. Yeah, and you know, I love rock climbing. I loved staying active and do even more of that would be advice to my co one year old self. Should people start businesses right out of school? If they want to do it, then they should. I think that it's different per person and I think yeah, I'd say, you know, you've got to go for it. If you know it's it's the right time to start something, then then go for it. Maybe create that checklist of hurdles for yourself and if you're passing through those hurdles, go for it. Yeah, maybe that's for you, maybe that's right out of school, or maybe you want some more experience or you want to build up some more network or you know a little bit of savings that you can invest into that company before so that you can get through those hurdles. That's my approach at least. Is there a place that you do your best thinking? I did a lot of my best thinking rock climbing. So you know, I think there's things that people do where it just sort of totally clears your mind. If you're rock climbing or maybe you're playing a sport or maybe something else, there's this sort of state of flow where you're not thinking about anything else and it clears your mind and then when you emerge from that activity, you're then have a very clear head and you're sort of in a very creative state, and so I think that that really creates like some of the best thinking. That dovetails into my next one, which is what do you do to keep your self physically and mentally right? ROCK CLIMBING STILL? I wish I were rock climbing more. I should get back into it at a more regular pace. But yeah, I think, you know, staying active, working out these days, a lot of you know, cooking. Cook for yourself, for myself a lot eating out. Is Not a it's both, but that much travel you have to eat out. But I think that, yeah, maybe I get a little bit of a state of flow from just cooking and you know, it's a creative outlet. Yeah, do you journal at all? I don't do your journal, not in the traditional sense. So I do I use a five minute journal. If you've heard of that before? No, so it's in the morning. There's IT's originally supposed to get into. I'm guilty of not doing it every day. I probably do it fifty percent of the time. So in the morning it takes two and a half minutes. You write down three things that you're grateful for, what you're looking forward to that day, and it can be as small as I am able to stand up out of my own bed. I have a bed that I get to go to bed too, and my kids are healthy, an example. And three things that I'm looking forward to today would be getting to catch up with you. I have the opportunity to teach a class tonight and we just bought a new house, so I'm congratus. I get just thank you. I can sleep in my new house tonight. Yes, on an airbed, but I still get to sleep there. And the end of the day you just reflect on what are, what were the three best parts of your day and is there one thing that would have made the day better? And it's just training your mind to look for being appreciating some of the smaller things and then looking forward to things throughout the day. So it's just the practice of gratefulness and thankfulness. I also journal on screw call it screw ups, things that I've done well, not done well, learnings throughout the years. So these are smatterings all over the place. So I'm not like the guy that sits down every single day religiously journals, but I shot things down for that's cool. I like that. Yeah, I'll buy you a gratefulness journal. Great, thank you. Last one. Is there anything you wish you would have learned earlier or a skill that you think if you would have had it buttoned up or on lock heading into universe, that it would have helped you in starting growing universe? I think if I could, you know, whisper into my ear when I started in the company, would say pull a trigger on that focus a little more quickly. I think I knew that we would need to focus the business at some point. It was just a matter of where we cast this really wide net and you know. But I think, yeah, you know that skill around folk focus, focus, both in terms of the types of customers are going after but the different, you know, marketing channels and all these things. I think focus is really key. It's hard right because people don't want to say no yeah, two things. An example that I give often is when you think about starbucks, we're drinking are delicious Christmas Cup starbucks coffees here. So I'm looking at the logo, but starbucks is at least if they if they wrote down who their target market is. It's for us, but it's for a certain type of person. MM. But it doesn't mean that all the other people won't buy it. Right, exactly, not. It's not built the starbucks isn't building their brand with my mom and mind. But you better believe that every year that Christmas drinks come out, she's the first one in line spend an eight bucks on a Latte. So I think people have a fear of if you focus, you have to say no...

...to some people, but that's actually a good thing. Yes, and the side effect is that even though you're saying it's not for those, it's not for everybody. There are people in those not for everybody circles that will still buy your product. Exactly, but it's hard. Yeah, that's definitely a lesson and I tell people it's interesting that. You know, we've grown universe a lot. We're still growing very rapidly and ironically, we continue to focus as we get bigger and bigger. At least at this stage, it's like, let's focus further and further on specific category, specific types of events. And Yeah, it doesn't mean that these other types of events won't work with us. It just means that we're thinking about some focal areas a little bit more closely. Good, I am going to wrap up, but I want to give one more chance to talk about I'm rewinding here. So unit economics. Yeah, and the importance or the unimportance of having an idea of how you were going to make money, how you're going to price, how you're going to charge, how you tracked whether you were hitting those metrics on a weekly, monthly basis? How did you approach that in the business planning process or in the pivot process? was there a master excel sheet that you kept revisiting? Did your investors hold you accountable to those things? It just give people a fear of feel for at the stage that you guys were at. What rigger did you have around you? Yeah, we were always thinking about it and there were different levels of rigor and approaches at different stages. So prior to launch we were thinking about it and it was part of the business plan. You know, we were prerevenue, so there was a dynamic of raising prerevenue where there if you don't have revenue, they're focusing on the other things, team product or prototype. And then business plan. But I keep part of that business plan is all right, how are you going to monetize? How is this going to scale? How is this going to Pan Out? And so there was definitely some really good thinking in there, sort of conceptually at that stage. And then if you fast forward, there was some a lot of rigger that we put together around measuring on a cohort basis. You know, so the cohort defined as users who signed up in month acts. What revenue did they generate for us in the month that they signed up and then the next month and then the next month and etc. And as you project that, what is the lifetime value of that cohort? And then we tracked that month of a month and we'd say, okay, the cohort that signed up after that one, maybe the cohort was a little bit bigger, maybe the cohort itself was a little bit smaller in terms of quantity of customers, but what was the value that we were creating month after month from them and what's the new lifetime value for that one and what we were able to track as kind of month over month, as we progress through time, we're able to make the product better for them, more valuable for them and sell into a larger and larger customers. That created more valuable cohort. So that was a key sort of unit economic analysis that we looked at. And then the counterpart to that is the cost. So that's the top line. And then the other side of the you know, economic, is what is it cost to generate those customers? And who ran that free? Who ran that process for you? The tracking process, it was yours. Truly. It was looking at the yeah, a lot of excel crunching, crunching, you know, just raw export data at this time from our databases. Now we've systemized into tools that do it on an automated basis and allows us to step back in. The date is too big to do it in excel now. But yeah, on that side. And then the other side is tracking the the cost of acquisition. And did you where did you learn to do that? I the actual like unit economics tracking. Well, not necessarily know. I mean the the excel skills and the analytics. I think you know school, so even engineering school as well as as business school, and then you know consulting and invest in paying after but then the specific cohort analysis. It was less so around how did I learn to do that, more so around how did I know that was the right question to answer the right output. And one of the biggest learnings for me was going out and pitching hundreds of vcs, and its hundreds. I've pitched hundreds of vcs and you know, obviously you only take investment from one or two. You get a lot of declines and need a lot of tenacity, but some of those VC conversations, even if we got declined, were extremely valuable. They were just illuminating. They would ask really hard questions and really pointed questions and I found some fecs that were just really smart and really on point, and it was those vcs that I'm thinking of that I start to prepare answers for them and do analysis for them. But then would help us ourselves as well as, of course, other VC pitches, but more importantly, help the business itself. Yeeah, that's a good learning actually, because that's how we that's how we...

...started to implement some of that rigor as well. At inteltics. It was have conversations with vcs. Maybe maybe little too early right, but that's okay. That's okay. See what see, what they're feedback is see what they tear down. Yep, take some of it, make it better so that by the time you're actually ready to do the rays, you've been tracking your unit economics and Chord Analysis and the metrics that there was actually into the building a relationship along the way. Yeah, so good, good. Where can people find you now, either through universe or online, or any words to the listeners of the podcast. So you can find me on Universecom, of course, one eye with one eye. Now you can still type into as it redirects, and then on twitter I'm at Craig Fall it and same on instagram. So awesome. Connect with me. Great to have you. I think this is a great topic for the class. I think people are going to find a lot of value in this and we will definitely get a case on the books for Universe, because think there's a lot of cool teachable points for for your story that we should bottle up for all of time. Yeah, look forward to it. Thanks for having me. Thank you. You've been listening to the IVY ENTWINEUR podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit IV dot Ca, a forward slash entrepreneurship. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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