The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

14. Looking for 'more' with Alan Gertner of Tokyo Smoke

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Why is it that people in seemingly great places — good careers or relationships, leave to pursue ‘more’?

In 2015, Alan Gertner was working his dream job at Google. Growing up, Alan was the type of kid who preferred computer camp to sports camp, and at only 30 years old was an executive at Google, living in Singapore. He’d dedicated his 20’s to winning at work and realized he wanted the next chapter to be different – so he left.

He went on to start a company in the cannabis industry, Tokyo Smoke, which he eventually sold to Canopy Growth Corporation for a reported $250M. But his systematic process to do the self-work required to figure out what to do next was key to his success.

Alan shares that process, and more on the first episode of our new series Hustle & Grit.

You're listening to the Ivy Entrepreneur podcast from the Pierre L Morris at Institute for Entrepreneurship at the Ivy Business School. In this series I be entrepreneur and Ivy Faculty member Eric Johnson will anchor the session. Alan, thanks so much for coming in. Good to you get to hang out with you again. Yeah, thanks for having me. Always good to have you at the school. I wanted to spend a little of time. So this is part of our hustle and great series and I wanted to spend a lot of time today on motivation. You've got such an interesting and winding story, but I wanted to actually start with there's an article in the try believes, the Toronto star from two thousand and seventeen and you were quoted a whole bunch and the title of the article was the problem with reaching your career goal. Can you paint us a picture for where were you at when you were, call it twenty five or thirty years old? Pick an interesting time in your life. Where were you at? Yeah, I can. I can reflect and and relate to being thirty very close. I'm thirty five now and I remember being thirty. I was living in Singapore. I'd been working for Google for we just made just over a handful of years. Google was, in a lot of ways, my dream job. I went to computer camp as a kid and again, I'm thirty five. So going to get Peter Camp as a kid at that time was not cool right. This was this was a snaria that I remember my parents actively trying to limit the amount of time I went to computer APP there like okay, we'll trade you like two weeks a computer camp for four weeks of baseball camp. I loved I love this stuff and I got this job at Google. Googlecom jobs flat for a job. Got This job. At the time I moved from New York to San Francisco. Is in San Francisco a couple years moved to Singapore. Then I was in Singapore and at the time I was running a business unit for Google and this was all I could ever asked for. I had this job with prestige. I made more money than I ever really imagined I would make. I had a team, got to work in multiple officers, I got to be in this far fun place, all these really amazing things and I remember. I remember sitting down with my my boss, my mentor at the time and talking to him about what was next and thinking a lot about really my next promotion because, least for me, a lot of what I was always motivated by, why I was getting up in the bed and I got to bed every morning, was to get promoted. I get promoted, make more money, La they're into repeat star. Was Having this conversation with my mentor and talking about the next promotion and, like, I remember very vividly, explaining him why I wanted to get promoted. Just ask me like why, why do you care so much? When we really got down to it, I said that I wanted to get promoted really like to beat other people to that goal line and if I didn't beat the other people that Gore line, it was irrelevant to...

...me. And when we reflect it back on how I was feeling in my past promotions, what I realized was really every time that I got to that goal line I felt nothing. I was so excited, so passionate, so focused on getting that place, and then all of a sudden absence, all of a sudden I was in limbo again and I had to create this new goal, this new external focus, is new external simulited drive towards and ultimately, at thirty, I was tired of doing it. What I realized was this hamster wheel I was on wasn't getting me anywhere at all. I was just going to do the same thing over and over again forever. And so started me on this journey to try to figure out what truly made my life meaningful. Because if I had focused my entire s on trying to win at work, could I focus my s on trying to win a life? And what would that mean? So I I remember everything about sitting down and having that chat and it set me on the journey that I'm still working on today. And did your boss of the time did he encourage you to explore that? was He thinking, shoot, I can't lose this guy, or was he thinking, Oh, it's so funny? So I, like I remember also very distinctly talking to my boss, my boss is boss, into colleagues, about my decision to quit. When I decided I was going to quit, so I was working at Google. I went into a product in Ghana, when I came back to Singapore and I quit my job. And when I talked to a boss, my boss as boss, I'll explain this even a better way. There was basically a direct relationship between how supportive you were and how old you were. So the older the person was, the more supportive they were of me going on this journey. They were immediately understanded. Oh, you want to try to figure out what would make your life me you want to try to take a break and take a step back and look at all this great like, we're happy to offer you more money, we're happy to give you a different title, but if that's what you want to do, go do that. But when I would talk to my peers or people who were sort of fresher into Google, or talk to people who I didn't work with but or maybe my friends in life, all of them had at a harder time understand it because we had all had this same focus, we'd all had the same perspective, we'd all had these goggles on that made up made us think of life in a certain way. So why would you ever leave this job, with this money, in this place? Why would you do that? So it's so funny that I think back to how universal it was that those who I looked up to, those who are I respected, those who were older and they really and truly we're all okay and supportive of this journey that I was going to go on. And do you find that? was everybody else in your pure group also in a similar place? or where there were, there's some people that had sort of got to this place and figured this out earlier, or is everybody just sort of heads down?...

I want to win at work. For the all, there were lots. When he's he's figured this out way quicker than I did. I don't know if they went through the same journey. It might have just been a nate for them. It might have been a discovery they made. Are there. But even now I can reflect on my friends who maybe went and became ski bumps right and live in a ski town and work in a ski resort, and they seem, they've always seemed, happier, like they have lives that are more meaningful than some of my contemporaries who've been grinding a way of work. Sometimes I would tell myself, and I think lots of us do this, but I would tell myself there was only one true path, it's only one story here that makes sense, and that story is the story I believe my whole life, good work, work, hard journey on when I started to look around. You know, it is clear that there was so much more going on, but it was hard to look around for a lot of that time, right, because I'm basically climbing this mountain, and so it's stage one. When you look around, you do you don't really see anything. It's not to you get to the top that you can really look around and and see that there are other people on higher peaks, there are other people who taken totally different journeys. There other people just where you are and they didn't take the same root at all. So it took me a long time to figure out that there were other paths and that maybe the mountain I was climbing was wrong, wrong mountain in the first place. All right. So that led you to a trip to Ghana, I believe. Right. So I went to Ghana. It was actually the last project I did, a Google okay, so I was lucky to get to go on to content there and we worked on a project to deploy Internet infrastructure and Ghana. Google and it's infinite wisdom, looked at the Canadian Margaret Thought Hey, this, you know, real opportunity for us to do something here, and one thing we can do is deploy fiber cables. So we went around Ghana and help people understand how they could use google and youtube and all of these things to make their lives better, because now they were going to have this high speed Internet. And while I was was there, you know, I had a couple moments that really pushed me over the edge in my decision making to leave Google, and one of them was we're on the way of this Voodoo ceremony. So it was me and a couple other google employees, googlers who were in Ghana, and we talked about things we could do while we're there, and really only two of us have maybe the twenty googles over there had any interest in this voody ceremony. So we found a guide, gotten this car, drove out to the Bush and the booty ceremonyesself was cool right, a whole different story for a whole another time. But the thing that was impactful, that is stuck with me is talking to the guide about my life, saying that I was feeling an unmoored from my goals, that I was going to quit Google. Let guy sort of couldn't believe this, right, but I asked him what motivated him in life. Why does he get up and be the guy every day and why does he get up and do what he does? He told me that for him, his focus has always been...

...about either doing something that he loves or doing something for the people that he loves. This, I did, really stuck with me. Work on something that you love or work on somebody to support the people that you love. And it's not necessarily the principles that everyone should orient their life around or that I should orient around, but it was. It was the summation of a journey that was so different than mine. That's not how I'd focused my life at all. All right, I was going to win at work. What do I care about the other stuff? So to hear someone's such someone's thoughtful, concise statement about how they live their life, it really helped drive me to try to figure out this new path. So you're starting to piece these things together. There was something, some sort of discomfort that you were feeling. A Google, you met this guide and you're starting to say here's a principle or an idea that gravitates. Were you capturing these anywhere, or was it just like I'm going to park this thought, but to park this idea or in your mind where you like, Oh, this is a foundational thing that is going to be the basis of something. I don't know what yet. How are you organizing that Info? Yeah, I've always been a very fastidious notetaker. I try my absolute best, whether enabled by technology or not, to write down everything in anything that is interesting to me. Hey, and so I've always, always done that and as I've gotten old I've gotten also a lot better at journal and trying to do more free writing, because I think it's a nice opportunity to reflect. So this time I was really just writing stuff, writing stuff down, but I was still unsure of where I was going to go. You know, I was the youngest person in my my job's back at Google and the in the world right. So He's part of me was still dragging me to this place of okay, well, I should just I should really just keep on this journey. What happened was I got back to Singapore, I decided I would quit and then, as I was thinking about this new journey, I would go on and keep in mind I quit with no plan, and this never really made sense to me that I would look forward to this idea of quitting and then going in line on a beach, absence of stimuli, the absence of things to do. That didn't feel like the path to the dream, of the vision that I had, because this dreaming, this vision, was to figure out what would make my life more meaningful. And so for me, after I quit, I started to do a lot of reading and started to try to assemble some tools that would help me figure this out, what would make my life more meaningful. And this was after you quit, this is after I quit. So I quit without this plan. I quit thinking that I'll figure this out. One thing I've always told myself, this is for better for worse, is that I'll figure it out. So I quit my about I'll figure it out. I packed up my bat like packing up my bags and Singapore, because you can't stay in Singapore. I'm not from Singapore, so quitting is also the expery of my visa. Pack it on my bags in Singapore and decided on this journey that is ahead of me. And I wanted some structure, I wanted some rubric, I wanted some way to be able to evaluate...

...my life going forward, because I wouldn't have the same consistent inputs like I had before, but I needed some way to stort through this information, and so, with someone who went to Ivy, who was a manage for consultants, who worked attack comboddy for too long, I thought, I'm sure spread you will help myself this problem. So I built this big spreadsheet and this spreadsheet was my way to reflect on my happiness and the meaning of my life, and so I tried to track everything that happened to me every day. I'd get up in the morning and have some tea and do some meditation and I reflect on my past day. How happy was I? How meaningful was my day, and I'd score myself at a ten. Who Do I talk to? What do I talk to them about? What was the weather like? What do they do? Try to write all these things down and I went out and lived this life that I hadn't otherwise got to live because I've been working. So I got the chance to go and be a backcountry ski tour Guy in Japan. I'd love skins one of those moments where I feel and flow or I feel like my life has meaning. I got to ski my friends and I we bought a twenty year old Tiota and we drove from London to Mongolia. I got to go do all this stuff and all this time I'm feeling this of you every morning, filling it out, and after not that long I started to discover a pattern and it taught me two principles that were the guiding light of the next phase of my life. These two things, I don't think they're necessarily so revelatory, but they were important for me to see in the mirror, to see that they were true for me. One of those things was that my life is more filling. I am happier if I am part of or building a community and, as I said, this is, I think, in some ways a pretty obvious thing. There's lots of studies around human happiness that say one of the most fundamental inputs to your happiness is time with your friends, time with your family, time with loved ones, social time. And I'd spend my life trying to win to work. So after I left Ivy, I lived in New York, I lived in San Francisco, I lived in Singapore, I lived in Bangkok, he'll goo and I lived in gone. It's doesn't sound like necessarily the trapplions of a person who optimized for community okay, so I know community is important to me. The second thing I learned was that my life is more fulfilling, more meaningful if I take on a big challenge or, to steal from Google sparlence, if I take on a moon shot, if I focus my energy on trying to imagine a world that I want to live in as opposed to the world I live in today. And this isn't necessarily five percent better, at ten percent better. There it's not about running a marathon faster than I typical would run a marathon. It's instead about some large scale hard thing, about pushing a boulder up a hill. If I focus my energy...

...on those kinds of things, my life feels more fulfilling, that feels like I'm making a difference. And so I had these two anchors. Now I want to be part of our build a community and I want to take on a moon show, and those two came out of all of the new experiences in a lot of the tracking that you did. Like, did you did you see somehow through the patterns of your data, that the days that you were happiness, had happiest, had something to do with those things? Yes, like I remember when we were schemes. I'm working as a back unjury ski to our guide. We lose a group. We're in the forest in the middle of nowhere in Japan and we lose a group of people. Like not a good scenario, right, and if it's not otherwise abundantly clear, I don't speak Japanese, so you know, other than alerting the nearby staff that we've lost a group, it's not a lot I can do. Is the key interpreter. Like we can lose my group. To be fair, we lost a group. So we to find this group, myself and three four other guides, and we're doing our absolute best time trying to call them. Obviously we can't get ahold of them. There with a guide, so we know they're at least with somebody, and we end up, you know, said, of this big parimeter searching the forest. It's five PM, at six PM and Seven PM and ski in Japan is cold. Right, your twenty thirty son is going down. Is Not a it's not a good, good look. Finally we get Ahold of the guy, like crackling phone call move this, you know, big printed map out. We're looking at the topography of the area. We're pretty sure where he's going to pop out of this gully. It turns out they went into this gully that they obviously can't get out of. So a couple of US get in a car, we drive an hour and a half away, start climbing up this hill, hoping that they're going to come out of this gully and we find them. Maybe we find them at nine PM. So holly stressful, terrifying, uncomfortable situation. Include get everyone together, going out, have a nice dinn or maybe have some warm rum and and drink some beers and reflect on the day and promise that will never lose them again. But when I woke up the next day and I filled out my my spreadsheet, what I noticed was, as silly as this might sound, my life felt very meaningful and that would like I got the chance to participate in something that was truly hard to put, you sipait, in something that was about community, about, you know, there's group of people that I had spent weeks with that I cared about, to work with, guys. We work together as a team to do all this stuff. So this's a, you know, small anecdote of the kind of story that led to a score being higher one day, and so I would see these patterns, when these things would happen, and because I also took notes, right, it was a journal and a spreads, shame, it was easy to start to see these inputs that drove this feeling,...

...this desire for community, this desire to take on a big challenge. But had you not given yourself the time to reflect, in the space to actually live those experiences? I mean you, maybe you did experience do things like that before, yeah, but hadn't given yourself the space or time to reflect on it? So only by giving yourself the head space to do that where you actually having these these insights, of these realizations. I think that's true and I think it was important for me, given my makeup, to be able to see it in the mirror. As I said earlier, it's one thing for me to read a business book or a book about improving my life that tells me these two things. As I suspect there are a lots of other people that have come to that insight in many more. What was truly helpful for me was to be confronted with that and I was confronted with this idea that these are the thing I have an obvious choice here. I can I can take this information that I've been writing down while I've been living my life and do something about it, or I can not write it's like an extreme version of, you know, these strength assessments that people will have. Or you can sit down. You can sit down in your office and say, like what brings me energy, what drains me energy? What am I good at, what am I not good at? I do every year I look at my calendar and I look at what were the things that I did, either meetings that I take, what traveling did I do? And looking at them I can almost get an emotional response to like Oh, I remember when I got on that flight into that like I need to do less of that this year. So, just to jump in really quick, one thing I've been working on since I left my job in this past February, in two thousand and nineteen, was this idea of the full body. Yes, it's actually the full body. F Yes, but I'm not going to swear so that the full body. Yes right. So this idea of full body has some reason I bring it up. Is I think it relates very well to that feeling you were expressing right of like Oh, it's like, you know, I that was just a not good experience. So Nix. Sometimes for me in my life I've always looked at things with my brain first. I want to look at these problems and the scenarios that I'm in. I'm reflect back with my brain and that's only really one part of how our body thinks. We have neurons in our gut and our heart is it plays a hugely meaningful role in the way that we think and the way that we react. So this idea of the full body yes is trying to reflect on and trying to tap into understanding how you get reacts to things. Now, your heart reacts to things because that feeling like Oh, that's not a head feeling right. You posture even changes when you make that make that feeling. And so better understanding this, this this full body yes, has been very important in, you know, this next journey that I'm on to try to understand. Okay, well, what really gives me energy. I can have some base principles in place, but I want to understand what gives me energy and I think to go through that exercise. In my estimation for me at this point in my journey, it's not just about my head. That's sort of...

...been the next part of my understand it of myself. It's actually about my heads, about my heart's about my guts, but my whole self and trying to figure out how to see the signals from my God in my heart, because I feel like I've been trained only to see the signals from my head. So we haven't even talked about where it led you. I mean you probably typically start some of these conversations with previous roles and what you've most recently done, but I wanted to dig into how you made that transition because, I mean, you've done some phenomenal things since leaving Google, but the to do that self work, to put yourself in a position to go without really knowing what the next thing was. I mean, frankly, a lot of the other guests that we have on there's stories of how they mitigated the risk, how they started as a side hustle, one foot in one world, one foot in the other, or they mitigated the risk by finding the right founding partner and D risking the team. Those are all people much smarter than I am. I suspect yours is totally totally different. So it's just re emphasizing to me, like Gosh, everybody's journey is just so totally different. For sure, though I will say part of my understanding of my life is that everything I will ever go through someone else has already gone through, when every feeling I'll have and every success I'll have and every failure, someone else has gone through that, and it's been very important for me to try to find those people and try to read and learn from all the experiences that I've happened before me. So you ended up doing that self work. You did end up, I'm paraphrasing hugely because I know there's a massive part of the story here, but you ended up in the cannabis space. Did there's a massive story in between that a lot of other people have touched on in previous interviews. So Google Alan Girtner and you'll see the full story. But the story of founding really you had this bold you created this vision, and I love the way that you phrase it to me in the past was you envisioned a world where cannabis was going to be it was going to grow. There was an opportunity or a moment in the Canada seized, thank goodness, at least for now. You knew that retail was going to be a part of it, you know that brand was going to be a part of it, and so you position yourself nice and early as a brand in the space. Then went on to found company called Tokyo smoke, which eventually you what did you? You sold it to canopy. So we sold it to canopy. The deal closed September two thousand and eighteen, so basically a year now. Okay, so sold it for healthy some being went on to become the chief retail officer of candapy Growth Corporation. Yeah, and then you left. Yeah, can you help me understand again, because this is like, okay, Alan has done his exploring, he knows what's important, he's done this self...

...work, and now it's like, surely now there's smooth sailing and everything, he'll just be the head of retail of the biggest cannabis company in this exploding industry. And yet a few months in you ended up leaving. So it it didn't surprise me, but help me understand that thought process for why you left. Again Worth Anology, and I've been very lucky on this journey. We had a specific thesis of our business and you know, we worked very hard, but a lot of things fell our way and in September you can it be closed on buying our business, and can it be? As sort mentioned, is the largest cannabis company in the world. He's a company that Canada birth. was just truly unbelievable upwards at some point of a thirty forty billion dollar company. We were incredibly lucky to become part of that business. I was became the chief retail officer and spent just over half a year working there. I think a big part of why I left was going through a similar process of reflecting that I went through a couple years ago and a couple exercises that were very helpful for me, not so dissimilar from the wisdom I have got from a mentor in the past or the spreadsheet that I had built to start to focus my direction. One of the things I remember doing in the past couple of months was sitting down on the sprit scheet again and reflected on the past five years of my life, how I feel today and how I want to feel in five years. And if you imagine that there are ten, two thousand and twelve in a number of parts that are drivers to the makeup of a person. Maybe it's your emotional energy or your spiritual energy, maybe it's your financial independence, your living environment. You score those things. Oh, scored these things out of ten. I clearly like scores out of ten and spreadsheets. So I scored all of these things. I scored all these in five years ago before I went on this journey. I scored all these things today. This is, you know, in January this past year, maybe December last year, and I scored all these things five years now, and each time I'm writing to try to explain the difference. Right, by scoring from eight or why? Do I remember my financial independence feeling like an eight five years ago? What was funny but going through that exercise, was you add all this things up. So let's imagine it's ten things out of ten, so the scores out of a hundred. My score went down relative to five years ago. What I couldn't I short, I couldn't even believe it. But part of why that was a very useful exercise for me was in recognizing things that I knew, which that maybe my financial independence went from an eight to a nine. It's not like I felt constrained in the first place. I've never wanted to buy a Ferrari. Any ways. These are not the drivers of my happiness and my motivation, and there's so many studies out there that's say money beyond a certain level inhibit your happiness. anyways, and these other things maybe my emotional energy. My score had gone...

...way down because I had got back into the routine of trying to want awhere, but I did. We built this business. I put my head down and I worked. My superpower, or or place, the super power that I'm most in touch with, is that I have no Fummo I as a person. Put me in a dark room, give me a product to work on, I'm there. And so that three four years it disappeared because I worked and I was focused on our vision. I was focused on our purpose. I believed in our purpose. Maybe unlike before, I had this purpose that I believed him and we were truly doing this thing. I believed in this big challenge. There's about community. I believed in him. But when it came down to it, I still ignored the seven other parts of my person, or eight other parts or twenty other parts or whatever it was, and so my score was down and looking at that I again had this moment. Well, I have a choice here. I can do something about this or I cannot, and unlike in some ways other parts of my life, I have no excuses now. I've ticked those boxes that I wanted to take. Now I put that money in my pocket, and so I have to really, in this scenario, I have to really, really look at myself in the mirror and say I'm not going to do anything about this just because I don't want to. That's just not who I am. So I was another chance to go on a journey of discovery, to try to figure out who, who I want to be for the rest of my life, or at least the next phase of my life, and to do the work. So do you have you've been through this transition of a few times, huge transitions. Yeah, for you say, money wasn't a huge motivator. You'd never was like this level of enough. Then you get some enough and then anything more. You said it went from an eight tow and nine. So didn't usually change anything. No, totally, and I don't think that's unique to me at all. Yeah, the you know, the one of one of the most amazing things about being part of Ivy and graduated in this places. You know, the world is your oyster in some ways, and I think very quickly you discover that all of these challenges that you thought were ahead of you terms of making your life work, a lot of them you achieve pretty quickly. Yeah, so what work do you recommend twenty somethings do now, or what advice do you have? Because it is it is it, you know what, for the first ten years. You just need to put your head down and do the work first, or is it do the self work before you put your head down and do the work? Yeah, good question one. I generally don't have any advice because I'd like I don't know right and, as I said earlier, and I truly believe it, I have worked are but I also got very, very lucky. What I can say is the self reflection, understanding yourself, being willing to look yourself in the mirror and acknowledge your flaws, acknowledge the parts about you that you don't like the part you do like. One way or another, you're stuck with...

...yourself, so you can layer on all these distractions, which I have been someone who has done. I've lared all of these goals on top of myself so I could focus on those goals and not focus on me and in in my journey, those problems, that suffering, it's gotten harder to deal with, not easier, as I've gotten older, and so it's I'm incredibly grateful that I get to go through this journey now because there are lots of people who go through this journey when they retire. I'm grateful I get to do this now, but I also will recognize for myself, hopefully this is helpful for others. I don't think I needed to not have a job, to quit any of those things to go through this journey. There are lots of bite size ways to do reflection, to do the work to understand yourself, to work through that suffering that exists with all of us that I could have done along the way, as opposed to having to having to confront such an abrupt change. I'm lucky with the journey I've been on, very happy to be in the place I am, but I recognized that I could have done those things that maybe would have made my journey different. Yeah, I like that you recognize in the beginning there's some I don't forget who said it but never speak from advice, only speak from experience. So I agree to appreciate that your bring your own experience, that it's hard to deal of generic advice. From totally inclosing here, is there anything? What do you focused on now? Do you know what's next? You've done some of this, you've done the self work. Do you know what's next in the chapter? Is it still tbd? Yeah, I've want to recognize have lots of selfwork left to do. Okay, I think that will be a journey I will be on my whole life in terms of what's next for me. You know, I admit I don't. I don't know exactly yet. When I've started to narrow in on is a bit of a better understanding of what my purpose is. I don't know if this will be the purpose of my whole life, but my purpose today, and I've started to refine this idea with time, that what the big part of what drives me and the difference I think I can make, given who I am. Said, I want to help bring new perspective or bring perspective to people's lives. That's a big part of why I was always excited about working at Google and this company that really could bring information, bring ideas to people, all up with the world to try to help democratize information in a way that could and did change the world. Part of why I love working in cannabis was it's an incredibly safe and cheap doorway to a new perspective, not say and it's perfectly safe, but relative. And as I've gotten older and I have more time, the things that give me energy understanding the world of meditation and sound baths and holotropic breathing and all of these things that fascinate me. A big part of why they give me energy and they fastate me is because I think they can help us understand ourselves in the world better and I think in some ways, more than any other...

...time, we live in a time where we are becoming more my opic and if I can try to bring perspective to people, to the world in some way, and I would be honored for that to be the purpose of the next phase of my life, that's great. Well, I want to thank you for sitting down, spending the time and if you're if you've got a filter now for the things that you say. He guess to the fact that you made the trip in and are sitting here to have this conversation means that it's important to you and it's really important to me, so I appreciate you making the time. It's my pleasure. Thank you for me, you've been listening to the IVY Entrewinnur podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or a visit IV dot ca, a forward slash entrepreneurship. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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