The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

15. How to be innovative and make yourself indispensable with Brent Choi of DDB Canada

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Brent Choi learnt the importance of being indispensable the hard way. Fired from his first four jobs, Brent began his recovery by relying on his work ethnic, and passion to find solutions. “I’m not as talented as my competition, and so I have to outwork them,” said Brent.

In our latest episode, Brent Choi, the CEO and Chief Creative Officer of DDB Canada, talks about the source of innovation, and creativity, and how it can be developed through passion and a desire to fix problems.

You're listening to the IVIENTRERNERpodcast from the Pierre L, Moriset Institute, Forrente Prenership at theIvy Business School in this series, Ivientrepreneur an Ivy Faculty member,Eric Janson will anchor the session print joy, appreciate you sitting downand taking the time to have a conversation with as thanks for comingin. It's often to be here, it's great to be back in the building that I'veseen built up and never got to attend, because it's pretty spectacular, I wassaying it's like a Google building or something yeah Google building withoutthe free lunches, but it is the new students are definitely spoild. Comingfrom the old building, you think, with the tuition prices, they would give yousome free lunch. Maybe they'll start building that int actuall Um, so I'mexcited to sit down with you for a bunch of reasons, h. One one thing I want to get to is thetopic of innovation, but before we get there, you've had a really interestingcareer path, and I think there are some listeners who are out there who may notbe sure what they want to do and they're really nervous about. The firstthing, because that's Gongto ultimately dictate what they do for the rest oftheir lives. So I wondered if we'd be, if you'd be okay with starting with,where were you when you were twenty two years old? How did your caeget startedwell with business school and all your friends in the classes on where they'rethinking of going does influence? You there's a lot of recrutment on campusfrom companies that everyone knows the brand names of, so you feel LitteCompelle to at least peek into that area. So there's all the e banking andmarketing companies and Y you interview for them, and even though you think maybe you don'thave the UM grades potentially for some of the Ey banking jobs or the UM interest in some of thears be still godown that path. I was lucky that between third and fourth year I got ajob for Mulenbrewris in promotion, so I had a taste of marketing and and maybe h, somecreating some promotions and different things like that. I was more of ahandler and helper, but I got to see that so when I graduated, I didinvestigate the advertising world, which I think Leo Burnett recruited onour campus in like the in the nineties, but there was no other advertisingagency, so I you know, basically I think, ats, a phone book. I don'tremember exactly how there's no Internet, so I found few agencies Ireached out to them and had some interviews and lucky enough. I got ajob at one of them, but within that it was in the business side of advertising.So Um for those who don't know, it's called account service you're.Basically, a business manager helping to run the advertising account. Myaccount was General Motors. So that was my starting point. It felt like it wasthe right sort of balance between my business school education and being inthe industry is a bit more creative, which I've always had o Uninterestin aneven through the business school time and Ivy. I definitely gravitatedtowards like the marketing classes versus the operations ones or the HRones, so that was Um. It felt like a nice fit, but, as I got into thebusiness, I learned about advertising and there's this whole other department. That's the crave department,which is ant, say it's absent of business, but it's it's definitelyusing your crativity to come up with the ideas. That's going to really helpclients, businesses with from commercials to different ways to thinkabout their product and innovation, and that was something that really excitedme. So it didn't take me long, maybe eighteen months or so before I decidedto put my portfolio together and that's how you had to get a job before youshowed a portfolio to different crative leaders and they based on that decidewhether you're cretive enough to work in the company, and I got lick enough.Well, I didn't get luck. I got like enough to be fired from my count,Ervice job, which kick started me to get my portfolio together and then geta job in advertising. Creative fired on...

...your first dreal job out of Ivy, yes,wow, yes M and it actually goes on further in I was fired, I'm not proudof it. I wasn't proud of it then, but in many ways it's define me today I wasfired from four out of my first five jobs and that is Um. You know it's funny in a way now, butit really helped me, and you know people would think. Oh, you must haveben a real screw up or told the boss off, or what did you do? Actually in my heart of hearts? Don'tbelieve I did anything wrong. One of the jobs there was a merger, so youknow lotf duplication had to do some changes there. Another one was a majorclient left, so some staff reductions. I was cautinent for that another, a newcrative leader came in and they cleaned out the thod of the department, and Iwas one of them and fourth one there was UM. My boss wanted to bring in asuperstar talent and need to find some salary money, and I was out on that oneso case by case you can rationalize. Oh it wasn't me, but looking back now, especially the role Iam, but also you know it didn't. Take me long, maybe like well. It did take me long, formy, firstfive jobs to realize I wasn't making myself indispensable. I was doing an OKjob and that's what one of the best lessons I would tell people today is:You have to be indispensable, and that means of course, during your job, butraising your hand to do more, getting in front of the senior decision maker.So if there's like a big extra effort pitch or initiative that people areasking for volunteers on like raise your hand, do it be there at nighthelping if you have to go get coffee if you have to like do real work, whateverit is be there, so the senior decision makers see your face: 'cause, it'sstill a human business and they look at a a data line and see my name andsomeone else's name. They see Nicgol, Brent, old, Brent's awesome. I rememberhim he's a real go getter we gotta. We got to keep him and the other namemight like. I did in the pass fall off because they just don't see me asindispensable, so it was something that early mccr was really hard. You canimagine trying to explain to your friends and family each time you getfired, that you might question whether you're in the right business orindustry, or whether you question yourself and trying to explain to yourparents that you got fired again. U, your friends, your girlfriend! It's it's really tough on yourself esteem!So I know your classis about grit. crit really is something you have to likelook deep inside yourself to to find your way fir, sort of round aboutanswer that question, but my creet did not start off. Well, let put that way.So what was this self talk that you had after I mean one one you get like okay,two, for what was the the self talk was, is all right, I'mjust going to go back at it again like what did you tell your O, a man? Yougot T you question yourself for sure me. It's almost blocked out of my head, butI can um. I can still remember there are times like. I think I need to get ajob as a waiter like just o regroup 'cause. You have to actually pay rent.Still Right A and as a mid twentis twenty six year old kid ti got to go toa bar. You' still got to go on a road trip here and there and you can't askyour parents for money. So it's you know trying to balancefinancial obligations. You have to give the Ora to your friends that you'restill doing stuff. So there's you can't see me but airquotes of freelance, sopeople s oh you're, just freelancing consulting but you're, reallyunemployed, starting my own business and ar you yeah sure, so, there's a bitof that, but Yo yeah. I question whether I'm inthe right industry, whether I questioned whether it was good enough,but all those questions were great...

...ecause. It reaffirmed that I do lovethe business and I was passionate about it. What I learned the most was thatcomment bout indispensability, if that's a word, but I wasn't doingenough and then my next job. I dedicated myself to the to the role-and I said: I'm not cotting get fired from this job. Everything I can- and Iwas about- I don't know twenty eight or twenty nine. I don't remember exactly,but I said I' going to work by butt off every night every weekend, if there'sanything, to work, Ot Aron to volunteer for it and through that you learn a lotabout yourself, but also you learn about how do yourjob better, so l Ke h, if I actually spent extra time on this, I can makethis better or if I work on more things, and you have more time and you put moretime into it- you get a better result. So there's a lot of actual learnings onhow to do your job better, but thereis, also just that commitment that theorganization sees in how much you're dedicated to the good of the company,so that really bladnched my career, that next job and my whole mind seid anthuts. I can't say I work as hard today, butthat has really changed how they approach Everythingi's, like you got toput in the time. I know that there's probably talk of Milanial was lookingfor more worklike balance. For me, it wasn't work like balance. It was workhard and when you have time, then you have fun, but it's like you got to workhard and and everyone's got their own choices. But for me I wanted to my crerto be awesome and I love what I do so it wasn't. I sure I'd rather go around a road tripwith my friends, but if I'm working hard on a big thing for a client,that's everyone's going to see, I'm just as passionate about that too. Sohave some guests. Commanded talk about different chapters of their lives andI'm seek a pattern amongst people who have had some at some point have hadsome good early career success and it often comes with just putting in the work in thebeginning. Some people do end up taking their foot off the gas a little bitlater on, but sort of a commonality thats coming up where they almost aperiod of usually about ten years sor of fall off the face of the earththey're consumed in their work, not because they they do lose touch witheverybody, but they love it. Ou know they kind of lose themselves. They findthemselves, they figure out what they're good at what they're not goodat, and that sort of sets up the next chapter so was that how long did thatchapter last call it? You were late twenties when you started that. Howlong did that ha to go on for probably good ten fifteen years? I I think- andthis is maybe a bit of my losing fory first five jobs psyche, butI never thought it was as good as anyone else so you're always going intoa situation. Thinking you're the underdog Thi SOMY TOLN to people in myindustry, but also just in the world, and you when you compare yourselfyou're like Wewl, that person's amazing they're going to kill me in any head toh type of situation. So the only way I can win is tell work them. So if you'realways go on with that mindset, probably a litte unhealthy, but I haveto let's just take any project M. If we both have three hours, they will win,but we don't have three hours, they have three hours and they might go home,but ave all night. In my twelve hours will beat there three hours, so that is,I still think about it. Today I might have taken the gas off the pedal. Alittle bit. WAIT: the Petal off the gas, whateverthe foot off the pet all the way now, whatever a little bit, because once youhave kids, it's a bit harder to work all weekend and all night my wifehas been awesome in and taking on so much too and I obviouslyi wouldn't havebeen AE, do to do it without her, but I still believe when there's moments thatyou have to, you have to put everything to the size, so f, there's a majorproject. Due I give my wife a heads up my family sort of nose gay for the nextmonth, H, Brents, pretty much going to be at work and 'cause. It's competitive,teres a lot at stake in my role now: There's lots of people's lots of jobsat stake that are depending on me. So...

...you have to do that plus. I know thatthat's how you get to work better too, like you got to spend the time on it.So it's it all perfect storm combines into. If you work at it, you R, carder,there's good results all around, so you spend a lot of your time now. I knowyou wear dual hats in your role, a DDB, maybe you C L T's, let's get to thenext face. So when you you started really working hard. This was your sixfourth fifth sixth job call. It figured out what it was, what your successformula looked like and then it was mostly then creative work that you gotinvolved in is that we spend most of your time on the creative side. Then,in that new wole yeah, I was just talking to Sharon Hashon the Eurdinehere, and I was telling her for the first I'll say. Fifteen years of mycareer, I I told no one that owned ivy becausebeing a business graduate business school graduate also have an economicsdegree, doesn't give that impression of Oll thatperson's so creative, which we have to change. I mean as ascrativity as critical to business, but I was ashamed to tell people haveeconomics and business degree so focusing on creative and early on. Itwas about disruption and and beingdifferent and thinking about things differently. But as I got more seniorand you had more client responsibility and you were in charge of more people and Cultureand Um capabilities, then all of the business school learning startisbecoming more applicable to me. So it's almost like early mccreer cractivitywas more important and some of the learnings that had in school were lessimportant. But as I every year and every time I got a promotion or a newsenior role. The Ivy Education became more important. I mean today, I'm I'minvolved with HR operations finance as well as culture and people, and you know international things. It'sit's it's so important today, and so that's that's. The tricky balanceisearly Nour career are you. You might not use some of the stuff, but it'simportant to have that foundation as you rise in the ranks too so you'verisen, maybe let's fast forward to your role today. So what is it that youspend most of your time on today and what is DDB DU? So DDB is anadvertising agency, but what advertising is today is very differentthan from madmen when you watch those shows DDB has a lot of t' globalnetwork lots of great clients, but what makes our office Um in? Can our officesin Canada different than a lot of the DDB around the world, but also thechanging landscape in advertising data is so critical, so we have a very robussdated analytics team. Almost everything O do starts with data,including C RM customer relationship management, so really following in almost a creepy way your wholejourney through the Internet. We know everything about. You may not be you,but might be just you know your ipaddress or your your Google Um. Youknow all the places you go through Google, but we know so much a facebookknows so much it's it's it's scary, so imagin all that, but NAN it goes intonot only mass advertising but shopper marketing. I think everything that ECOMMERCSITES are doing today is like.I used to believe that the the T v spot was a bigthing to drive awareness, and then you have to drive hem in in store to getthem to buy something, but I've botten, so many things, for example, onInstrabram or you see t for the first time. You've never seen this thingbefore you read the review, you watch the little video and then you eatcommerce, buy it right there in a minute and a half. I've never seen itbefore in it by it. So that's the kind of change. That's really happen now andall the data we just learn from that. Everyone that is on insogram from acompany'standpoint, know that you own a...

...dog now and you watch this video andthen you just bought this and you maybe didn't buy that time. But you stayed ont for a minute and a half, so everyone that has a dog product, suddenly hisbuying the rights to advertise you so that all that did analytics the loyalty,the e commerce PR is so big. Now, like we talk about m social media and andthere's a lot talk about fake news and all that stuff, everyone needs to hear and see aboutbite size moments that are promoting wer, putting brands in the public eyes.So those are big parts of the story that we work with too so pretty muchbrands. Now it used to be paid advertising, TV, newspaper or radio,but now it's it's everything and we have to be one of the expressions rweuse at ouroffice is every moment is a moment of truth, 'cause from an email to apexperience to a website to a store experience to a PR event to you knowwatching a movie d, and you see the trailer or a commercial there. All ofthose are moments that we can really affect how someone thinks about a brandand clients are looking for us to really pick the right moments and bemeaningful there and now everything's about conversion. So we have to getpeople to actually buy can't do those three year in three years, O by 'cause.They love the emotion of a BMW. It's no Needthan by like before Christmas. It'slike I'm a fan of OGILV's work. I we sell, or else everything is conversionnow, so what types of companies come to you and why do they hire you? What Oyou? What problems? Do you sal for those companies? Well, it's changed alot. I think a lot of the big network agencies really made their way with CPG package goods. COMORPACKAGE ECAUSE,like t e, Jane, JJ, Johnson and Johnson P, nd g unewlever. That's what it wasthe big marketing companies before now. It's completely changed. They stillhave a huge role, but with things like Amazon and and Walmart datcier there,those brands are finding it hard to compete, and so you can see their salesnumbers and ad spind numbers really going down. At the same time, differentUm cat companies, phone companies are really exploding, there's luxury brands,premium brains are really exploding fashion brands. So there's a lot ofopportunity there. We have also food brands like food. Is Food has alwaysbeen big, but there seems to be a real learning. That's happened where we canreally promote food from you know. QSR To delivery services to restaurant chains that have you knowdifferent delicacy that they promote so food's become really a big part ofculture. Now, music, as as your business was like music, is stillstrong, but also under major transformation. You know one of our ourglobal seal had a story last time she was here a couple o weeks ago. She saidevery client of ours is under major transformation and they're, reallylooking to us, as through innovation or or parts of different ways, to thinkabout their business, to really give them an advantage against all their competitors. B'CAUSE.It's every business has changed education aswe're talking has changed dramatically: music, inissues change, it's like everyone that we can talk toor work with, they're they're thinking that their business is under completetransformation. But it's it's everyone. There isn't one that isn't and sothey're hiring you to help them through that transition. Yeah!Sorry, I didn't quite answer your question. There's you know they have to sell product or make moneyin in quarter of Ba a quarter now a month to month, and how do we get before you? Do? A T v spot and, andeveryone sees it or 'cause, youare...

...watching grays, anatame or whatever itis, but now people are spending their time differently. So how do you reachthe right? People targeted people with the right message? D? You have theright product offering so we're working with them on from what the product isto how the product is positioned to how to reach the people to convert them onit, and then, even with that, how did the people who buy it become part ofyour promotion after that, and then how d you get them to buy it again, so theloyalty part of it, those are all things that we can help them with andand each client ask us for different things or all those things or or partsof those things. It's it's a some people say it's a really difficulttime for advertising agencies, but it's also an exciting time like ebuiltrobots for clients, we've built prophetic legs for clients, we've done big T v spots for them aswell, so crativities being used in so many different ways. Now hiy won when Ifirst came into business. cractivity was applied through TV and in printdads and now were coming up with acting. U Machines where or the you know,facial rerecognition softwares, with with Um Wea robout, the races e seenbolt that we created it's n in the world and that's just some stuff. Itouched the world is criating things that are curing diseases and helping people in thorbal countries tohave light. We've seen that happen through advertising agencies. It's it'sit's a remarkable time it's, but it's a challenge time, because the innovationthat you primarily speak about it's unknown so how to as a business, how topay for it so wh n. We say we want to do this for you and Clioen now how touse it, yet they don't have to pay for it. Yet so often we do it as aprototyping, which is not a good business model to protype and withpototype there's lots of failure. So the cost of porotyping is not a goodbusiness model to sell one and every ten things you try to sew, but we haveto still keep going, because that innovation is what to get one of thoseto pop. It's everyone in the whole world wants to work with you so T's. IWan to get into that you're you're actual. How do you innovate? So I I didsome few friends in th in the business and when I said I was going to sit downand have a conversation with you. They had a lot of interesting things to sayso. I'm wo one that' Well I'll. Tell you afterwards. So one m onesad he's done a ton of amazing work for a really long time. Well, first, hesaid he's he's legendary in the industry, so done aton. I said whatmakes him legendary a ton of amazing work for a very long time to beconsistently. That good is a really hard thing to do in advertising. A lotof creatives make their career on one great piece of work, he's been doing itfor years and he's always kept a very high bar. So these companies, why Ithought you'd be realy interesting to talk about inovation, because thesecompanies come to you to help them, innovate and there's a lot of pressurelike all right we're here. We know that you guys do this. Go, innovate, help us in Adam, sothere's a huge expectation, because you've done great work in the past.There's the pressure of having to deliver an how for this next client. Sohow do you and your team come up with these innovative ideas? What starts with great people? Ofcourse, I would say the one credit I'll give myself is through the last I'll say ten fifteenyears I feel like. I have a good ability to recognize count and people Iit might not be talent that might be the wrong word. People who have thedesire or the will to try to stand out and do something amazing, 'cause youcan meet people and just by meeting them know that they just don't at leastat this stage of their career. have it in them to to do what it takes. Someonshould probably mean that first five...

...jobs. If someone looked a me like he'sgoing nowhere, that's a bit harsh, but you know you meet people you just theyhad that spark or that that passion where they're not going to settle andthey're gonna like a lot of this stuff, is after hours over the week, it'sYouhae almost like a day job and then innovation, and over and abovecrativity, is the evening job when, when you have to order pizza in and youhave to give up the weekend- and it might be weekends, several weekends ina row- and some people just want to be a part of that if they want to be partof something really special. So recognizing those people is thestarting point. 'cause last hing you want to is force people to do thisstuff and then they're not going to put in theeffort that it takes. So once you have the people, I think it's important to create thevision or set the tone for the company that this is something that we believein and that we will back a lot of companies, talk aboutinnovation or doing something amazing for the world and I've heard of many adagencies. Theyhave these um get togethers whereeveryone throws in ideas its likea brainstorm, and you know there might be three or four really good ideas, butthen it just sort of goes into black hole and dies for me whenever I see a great idea- andI hope my company that I met now- but definitely previous companies know ifBrent really likes it, he'll find away. He'll, invest in, I he'll put moneybehind it, he'll take it to clients and fight to sell it through, and it mightnot get through every time, but they know that I'll give Hem y all to makeit happen, so creating that culture of like yeah. If I put in the time and theeffort and and really work on this, then it has a chance to have life. Atthe same time, you have to work with clients and say Kay: What are we reallytrying to do here? Do you again every clans as yeah? We want ambition, wewant innovation and then, when you say what, if we had this for you they'relike yeah, we don't have the budget for that or no. We can't quite do that.Wech need to have the incremental sale of one percent and just need to getinto lab laws on the shelf. Like you know so again, soar to recognizingtalent, you have to recognize which clients have that ambition like theyreally want to make a name fom themselves. They really have they'llfight for it internally, 'cause often you're not talking to the CEO you'retalking to a senior marketer who will have to go and fight for it, find thebudget find the funding and also take a risk 'cause. It could fail so theseclients that are also kin to your vision of like let's do something.That's gonna on Ante they make your career, but that you can be so proud ofthat you can look back over that year or two years and say yeah. We did thatwe did that together and it was probably so hard. I Wasno sayinappropriate ware there, but I it was so hard, but that's when it's worth itwhen, when others fall down and Youare able to keep going, I m an that's. Why,like the we talked about Spor, superbowl or Stanley Cup, like it's sohard to win, it's so h. it's also so hard to do amazing, creative,innovative work, like I'm sure the people who I actually met with Google, too greatGoogle maps, not easy, not easy. You have to getestreet in the world. You know like that's, not an easy taskways: Uber like these new inventions, new technologies, like not easy, so Igo through everything that we do I's, not easy to do great things, or else itwouldn't be worth it. So if you, if we were to plant a hidden camera in theoffice, a client comes in. I know there's many other steps but says:We've got this problem, we our opportunity. We want you to help withit. They leave it' assuming you've set the right environment. People know thatit's a safe place to meaf or ther ideas. You've got the right people on the bus. What happens behind Shirans I meanthere's a lot of stragegic foundation that has to go into it like you have tounderstand the audience and the decision making. So let's assume youhave all the strategy and and the the...

...consumer or the the user figured out, but first so first then you're doingyour own homework to figure out who hod a custo you're doing all that for doingall that, Rwere, whether it's a user experience, understanding or a customerpurchase journeys. So let's just I don't know, let's take cars, ise, always an easy one. So if,if you they want to market a new car, it's coming out it', it's some type ofcross over vehicle with a hatchbag and it's maybe it's electric or a hybrid orsomething. You have to vi: go WHO's going to buy that car and that's reallyinteresting to think about 'cause a lot of times the buyer might be differentfrom the marketing target Minni's a good example. Many you um advertise itas a young person's car. You know twenty five year old having fun Carefulifestyle, but the buyers are in their like forties, because it's expensive,but the forty year old that buys it wants to feel like a twenty five yearold. So you advertise twenty five year olds in the lifestyle an the fory year,Gos Yeah. I still got it, I'm twenty five. I should buy that car, so thoseare little small distinctions to figure out so to figure out the audience and also,if it's like a digital, that's an apt that you're crating. How are peoplegoing to use it when er they an use it? You have to understand the wholecompetitive space, yet understond the product, of course, really well too'cause. What's the distinct thing about it, that's going to stand out is aproduct fit to be marketed as it is? Does it have to be tweaked? If it's anAPP or a technology, it's tough for something like Sam Song or an Iphone'cause, that's so exclusively confidential. You can't affect it, butthere are products that we work with T climes og. This is kind of it and th.We have to help them finish it. You know it's really missing this or the. UX is off on this or and if actually once the product is right to, we haveto treak it for a different audience than we have to have different versions.Different colors, it would be an easy one. Naming is a big one. Our neaming is isa big. The product might be perfect blty if you get the wrong name, peoplejust don't Wan to have it, so those are important things to to think about. Sothere's a lot of Um a lot of questions we have to answer to know. I thinkthere's 'n a great expression to have the Raunts. You have to know whatquestion to ask. So what are we trying to solve and those are often the clintdoesn't drop it on your lap and walk way. It's really worked out together,really early on in the Proto Beta stage. We work through it all. So we get tothe final stages. We have a really good understanding of where we need to gowith the product or the the messaging. You have a playbook on that like theseare this is kind of our way that we go about gathering it or people on yourteam that are specialists in the yeah again, it depends on what the problemis. If it's UNAMING basily everything starts with our shoteagha group, sothe're labeled are smart people who really understand consumers and thestridg group has multiple types of people. Then there's like researchers,there's user experienced people. There are people who really understand consumersand their behaviors, and they they would really take the problem and tryto break it. Down to this is mayb an overeased word, but an insight. What'sthe real trigger here from UX, it's pretty straightforward and like how arepeople going to use this product or this ap or the experience Umexperiential event or something? But when you really get into someone psycheabout what's really driving them, whether it's something vain you know,fashion or like, why are people actually buying an iphone versus aSamson or or something? Why are people buying Nice cars or more practical cars?Why are people going to this hospital versus O that hospital? Is it alwayscome down to? What's best often it isn't, and in research is tricky,because if you ask people, thayl always...

...tell you the right answer that theyshould tell you, but that isn't always the truth. Someone actually I work with said there's an interesting there've, Beenan, interesting study to look at your social mediate profile and yourgoogle searches and how different they would be because Um, your socal eprofile, ofcourse, has like everything you want the world to see, but your Googlesearches are what's actually you're thinking about, so it could bedepression. It could be having affair dating sites. You know to helping your child who's struggling,but in Sochmi they're a superstar. So it was an interesting thing to thinkabout that what people say and what people do or think are not alliance orhaving great strategists that can uncover those things is a really greatUm, a billy to give us an advantage when westart talking to consumers or users about how they don't experiencesomething. So it's not clint leaves door closes behind them all right.Let's get a pizza and red bowl and whiteboards and stead aing up with idea.So there's there's a whole pro there's a whole strategic foundation that hasto go into it. I mean there are times ones really condensed like y. You might only have pizza awhiteboard time to get something done, because who knows what happened tocause the delays or the the urgency to it? There might be another client launches a a big newsitem in the press and Eur cline goes holy smokes. We need to be in marketwith this tomorrow, Wat's our best reaction to this, and that is Um. Those are tough situations to you.'cause often it's it's a reaction and you're already. You know on your heels,so those things happen too. It's als exciting too 'cause. Whenever there'sUm, you know a challenge or a problem or you'reunder the gun. ITD often crates. You know something extra special, too'cause everyone's everyone's willing to take a risk a bit more then ISO. Let'sassume we've done now fast forwarded bit. We've got the right team, Weour,environment. We've done our background homework yeah. Now it comes time tostart to maybe there's not. But how do youactually start to come up with the idea sure? So, then, then you have Um. Traditionally they be called a creativedepartment which has expanded so greatly. Now to what is creative withUm. A lot of different companies fromadvertising to just in general are bringing different types of thinkers.That are you come problem solvers. You can callthem. Um just have a have a knack for thinking about things differently,different approaches so you're bringing these people who could be photographers. It could beprototypers, it could be coders, it could be writers, art, directors,filmmakers and bringing them in to how do we? We know the audience or the target orthe or the experience we want to create. We know the insight. Let's say it'sit's forty year old men want to feel youngagain. O is the insight and the x product. Then there's Um, you can dodifferent ways, but w we often do is have a sort of kickoft brainstorm thatjust gets almost the bad ideas out. So we can understand what the world we'retalking about is often the tragi group. If they're really good, we'll, sayhere's a bunch of thoughts starters already, you know that will give ussome material to even start on once you have that often at least the way we do,we break off into separate groups. 'cause group think happens whichsometimes is great and Ye. Everyone just gets really excited aboutsomething, and you spend a lot of time on it and it cound really build so thatcound be great, but often it's not the best utilization of people.You kind o Wan everyone thinking about what the subject matters are, but thenit's best to sort of breakout, Ango down their own path, and I I personallylike the competitive ness of it all...

...that people had to come back and say I have these ideas and someone else hasthese and like oaths, that one's better, and so you don't want to come back within a group. Everyone' gets credit and it's great, but sometimes have thatlittle extra pressure of competition really drive people to to give the rolland back to that identifyin. The right person who really want to make theirmark not in a negative carrying down other's weight, but just really want to prove themselves o de something specialthey'll just drive it a little extr extra hard. So there's a whole sectionwhere people will work on their own thing. We might come back Anto, ashireback, probably a crative leader potential clin come back and reallysort of narrow e. There might be twenty ideas and, like you know, these eightreally have some Merrit and number six and seven actuay. Pretty close. May Webucket those together and then we might rebrief knowing what we see and learnedand made. We took the insight and just or teaked us at you know what weactually worked on one recently about Um or we're going TA product for theholidays, and we briefed a bit more broadly and we came back and there wasthese ideas that were much more narrow sa. This is actually the idea. So thenwe rebriefed everyone else on the tighter idea and dwunt to only work onthat and then eon worked on that and came back Ain. So sometimes it's notefficient, but for big important projects. It's worthwhile to go throughthe exercise to see whereeverend sort of goes to see if we actually had theright way in then ever one work on that and then once you have that, then youmight know down to three or so ideas, and it all depends on the challenge wasprobably the client comes in, and you really talk it through on. What's goingto be right and what's wrong, and then you have to explore the real viabilityof it, whether it's in production or in a build timing cost. These are allthings that come into play as well, and what the compromiss you might have tomake with timing or cost, or even even on how the consumer might it might take them longer to really create the the change that we want topersuade this. One of these might be a bit further out, so it's like. We don'thave time for that, even though it's better, we don't have time for it. Sothose are all. It depends on the KPI to figure out what the right path is forwdthey might even like do two or three all three of them. Itall depends what Picnon of them send you back to the Yo back yeah, and thathappens hat too. So how big a time period does that w? It could be sixmonths. It could be a weekend for I co mention once you get to these days again. It was a bit easier,maybe fifteen years ago, but now once you're thinking about ideas, you reallyhave to think through execution, so from production. If it's a product, youhave to really think about it. PRUCTION TIMELINES IE to make it in China or inthe U S, with the cost are of the differences quality approvals for legalsystems government. So those are all things to consider as well. If it'smore of a marketing thing than you have to work with, media companies say have a great idea for cinema. Idon't know and like a it's perfect o go with the new vengers film or somethingmaking it up like you. Can It's already sold that Welli had a good one? We hadan idea that we wanted to sell something in Lablas, a new product forlaw laws and the Cretive Tmr soite about', a new thing and e went to ourshopper team. Our retail team, like he've, already missed the holidays,andhshoppers or labals haave already bought in Thei whole holiday program inMay, and it was June. So I go all that idea is out. So again you have tounderstand: WHEREI'S GOINGTO go in the Timong of that, and sometimes you don'tknow 'cause you don't have the idea. Yet we wouldn't have had the idea tosell in law blaws or sobies or whatever. Until you actually have the idea.'cause you couldn't investigate the lawbosting in advance 'cause. There wasno idea to sell it in Lawblas. So it's it's a lot of Um, you don't knowuntil you have it and then once you...

...have it, you goto figure all thedifferent permutations of actually making it and getting it out there tothe world. So when do you introduce those constraints like would you bringif that idea sell in a major grocery store, whatever law law sowaysOES matter before you brought that to the client to see two sides of it, oneas you bring it to them and they say yeah that sounds great. Then you comeback and say sorry. Actually we looked in E, we can't do it. We W uld. Wewould have some experts in execution production building. That would giveyou a sense to say, like you know, that's really expensive! You know youcan't just build that with a three printer. It's a whole manufacturingprocess, andothers awould say like Yep, absolutely Doabo. I know the right guywho does that stuff and there should be no problem so there's a bit of you haveto go in with a bit of an idea. I will say, though, that depends on again what the project is.You often it makes sense to have one that's more up the middle I'll callit. So. Let's say you have a a brief for something you gotta come in withone: that's like pretty biable, pretty doable on budget clines like yea thatthe safe one, the safeshe' safe one you got to have the safe one. You often present the safe one person,okay, so teclient almost relaxes okay got. If push comes a Shov, I could putthat into market and and I'll meet my numbers and and everything good. Mybosses will be happy and then you might push hem l, but if you really want totry something ycatia x dollars more, but this could be really great for youand then may theres one. That's like get. This is a shoe for the moon, onethat's going to like change the whole world, so you would hope to have thattype of sequencing. It doesn't always happen. You might have two, that of thesafe one and again you have to read the client. The clim might be a safe guygirl. That says that you, like don't even wish your time on number two andthree, just you like three of the first safe areas that are slightly differentand that's a I don't call it a business decision,but I it's an experience that senior people should know right away if you'reworking with a a company, that's just known to be a bit safer, there's no usekilling yourself on. You know a new rocketship. Do you think the clients do you havefavorites going in I mean when you go to those Pitch Ahyohave to do you? Doyou at all push them on it? Yo Look! This is the safe one. We think itaccomplishes your roles, this one's the team favoriteyhdo. You do you ever forsure. It's probably pretty um known that clients will ask you whatyour recommendation is. A good client partner will say which you recommend,because they trust you and and and want to hear what you think. I think it'sless and less. They might ask you out of courtesy, but they almost don't care what you think.It's 'cause it's their decision so, but we still do it ecause. We still haveour feorits. I think our body language tells you what Af, even if we saidnothing the way you present it the the support matels you build around it it'. It should be pretty obvious, butat the same time I've been in presentations for ideas that our internal group is split on whichones people like as well. So those get a little sthricky because as the seniorperson you don't want to be like well, it's I'm the senior person. So I'mtelling what everyone should like. So you can um again depending on the client, therelationship E. Have you can say? Well, actually you know susyre like this one,but I really like this one. So you can can't go wrong or the total COPP ETwhich I've used as well as like, depending on your goals. This one willdo a great job of this, and this one will do a great job at this. So youcan't go wrong either, one depending on what you want is your outcome. How do you as a senior person Wei in on those, I always hesitant, sometimes to way and speaktoo early an people? Oh well, I mean Brent's been in the business for yea,so long he's had a bunch of success like I can't now. I can't give my ideaas clearly I think. Even now, I think prence is better. So do you personallyget involved in these? I do. I probably...

...can be better at that 'cause. I canhide things I like or don't like, so you want to be respectful, listen, II'm creative at heart, so I understand how hard it is to present ideas to notshoot it down so hard that people feel demoralized from it. resontly my new work people have havegiven a coin of phrase. It's called restingbradface and apparently it's what my face doeswhen I'm sclearly disappointed and which was it's very funny. It'sit's sad for me to hear that a little bit 'cause. I really do get excitedabout work too, but my bar is high, so ill, there's acceptable stuff like yeah,okay and my face may not show great enthusiasm and their stuff. That's notgood enough. Most stuff is not good enough and that's what your team wantsfrom you to say: That's not good enough. I think they don't want me to saythat's good enough when they even know it's not good enough and then the stuffthat I love, which which theyll feel from me, and they probably feel it too,as representing it so yeah. I weigh in there's definitelysenior people who might be. You know onward wrong, but less Enier than methat I want to make sure that they have their credibility and their authorityunquestioned as well. 'CAUSE, I'm not in every meening. I don't want them tothink. Well, their opinion doesn't matter. It's only brands that matters,so I don't get involved with everything you know. I'll pick my spots, whetherto disagree with someone 'cause: It's it'sthe end goal or t the war, not the battle so yeah. I don't love this one,but you know Joe does so I'll support Joe's idea here, even though I preferthe other idea, so you gotta be smart of a win and where you might speak.Obviously, if its a big deal big moment, big revenue, you know I got ta speak upand and really also one of the things I've been working with. One of myleaders now on is like don't when you know something's off, don't give it time because it makespeople spin. So if you have like three areas that you're pursuing and you justknow one's not there, even though you want to be nice o the person who reallyloves it, if you give them time with that andthink yeah, it could be something there. I'm not sure. Then they're goingt spendanother two days on that idea, even though you know these other two ideasare where the th, the future is so as a leader. You also have to make harddecisions. Just to save them from themselves- and that's that's somethingthat is important too that's good. I found there was an old article writtenabout you and you said, there's paraphrasing, but sort of the team willcome up with an idea, but then you talk about the process of crafting an ideauntil it becomes a great idea. HMWHAT is that process? How do you turn goodin the grade? It's obviously iterative and there's alot of people get n involved with it, but I think with anything I think itwas again tdropping needs about a google conversation I had is someonecomes up with Um 'cause. I asked the Goole guys like how do you know whocame up with Google maps like it's such a great idea, or one of these, likethese amazeng things that Google does Gena? Who came up atglike 'cause? WhoCares who came up with it? We all know that eight people who sat in the roomfor the next two years hat built it, and I was like that's reallyinteresting ecause in advertising the person that came up with the idea ofthe hero and for goosing. No, the EGHT people built it our you know we want togo to the Moon Cret. Is that HA great idea? No there's people who shu to makethe rocket ship to get there. So that was a real new way for me to thinkabout that. But it's I think the tech inustry has really helped ouradvertising industry to become more iterative and just keep making itbetter, whereas before again it was mostly in film situation or print. Youlike you, spend so much time crafting itto it's perfect and then you put itout there sa there. It is our perfect masterpiece, film, but nowadays likehere it is mostly what do people think?...

Okay, let's OK, you don't like the endnin lest change an case. You don't like this. Let's fix this. People aredropping off 'cause. Our data shows they're not experiencing. They don'tget the stage to the AP. Ok, let's change that. So there's a lot of data thelps us get better. Just user experience helps us get better, but Iwould say I think we all look an it's just human issue, look atstuff and says it's not quite good enough. So it's. If you have the timeyou have the resources o money you just keep pushing it to until I reaches astandard that you think is great if the product calls for that. So on some specific ideas that iveturned into great ideas, I mean you've won your team and your work you've on aton of wars, a lot of recognition, the another person I spoke to in theindustry. This is a friend, Spencer, dingle I'd, say a rising star in thecreative space. I asked what was what was some of his favorite work thatyou've done and the pain squad campaign for sick kids was one of his favoritecampaigns to ever come out of Canada. So I know that one specifically, youwere talked about. Th Creative is not a department, so it's not like okay bringin the creative people, and now we need to come up with ideas. So how did you? How did that come together? How did yousource different ideas from different people in the organization? I'm reallyproud of the team on that one I, it was so onorthodox ill sa how that created R.I t person was nea to a nurse at the SICIShospital and they're talking about how there's these paper paper journals thatkids with sicknesses have to fill out about how they feel pain and theywanted to just move it all into a palm. A P like a pomp, Pili kind of thing andthe guy came so Theitgu said: Oh Yeah. They want us to move it all into a palmpilot kind of thing and we're like well. That's that really doesn't seem to makeany sense. So we went an presented to Sicisseq. We think there's a differentway to do this, so they aid okay, well sure, like what can we do het verylittle money? So a crative team started the project and said and theattwo ideas. Let's make a let'smake it an iphone that has some interactivity to it. That can be like agame. 'cause gaming was growing and kids like games and I might get them'cause the challenge of people, weren't filling out their data and the DAT'simportant for helping them manage their sickness, like where the pain was howmuch pain it is pain after certain medication. So these are all importantthings for doctors to know, but kids are sick and they don't want to do thejournals to keep track of it all. So it's a real need, so the two games that they came up withis a game show and the one was a detectiveidea. So you know we talked about ner and said: Well, it's got to be thedetective one. So when presents this whole detective idea- and this Ki'srelease is great- can see how kids would g t involved. thered be likelevels from you know, like private sergeant, captain to full detective andTso there's achievements, so it all made sense and then we started to buildit out and we thought great if we had these thiisbocto execution of theselittle videos that had someone come on, say: Hey Great JobBilli, like you've filled out your thing for two days in a row like yougot promoted to you know, captain in our or one of our peopstoffs at hey,found out about, I say: Hey, I'm friends with some of the cast. This is now likealmost ten years ago, but rookie blue, the T V show Ka and COP Tev show Icould maybe talk to them and see if some of them would be the people in itSFOR SI kids good cause. She told the idea to them. They thoughtthat was great, but they are also friends with the CAS. A flashpointwhich is another T V, show cop show, and they said they would do it too. Fosome. We had all these actors well known, Canadian actors. One wasactually well known, international actor from lashpoint, and they did all those videos for free,no cost in full, uniform, so the whole...

Um wardrobe team for rickabluence andflashpoint all volunteers to get them all their gear, ready to be dressed, R,Itiga, also filmed at all. We filmed T at Onour, agens, O roof top for some of EM. I know someo onWeactualy shot it on ontheir set. I emember scenes where some of our craveteams and are staff or holding lighting gear, 'cause, there's no money, sothere's no production team as littly ar people holding lighting year and those.You know those big white boards to make sure there's no reflection or we didthat our own guys built the APP ourselves and then we of course didUSTHEIR testing W th with the children and they loved it, and they gave usfeedback on how to make it better. So it was, you know creative people or itGuy Staff. The person who knew the flashpoint people were was orcommunications experts or she had the connections there. R, CEO WIDH investtime into this, or he was also a big partof by saying Ya. I don't mind USspending all this time on this without really getting paid much for it, so itwas as a full agensy effort to get it all together, I'll see a great causeand- and we help kids manage their pain better. So it was great. So do youthink it's your? You have an interesting role. I think it's uniquein the agency world, where you wear duel hat or your y current Ry rresponsible for both the the business and the creative. So do you think that getting to alsorun the business side of things, do you get to shape the culture, have a bigger handin hiring and have like a broader picture, and that is what helps you put resources or the right peopletowards the creative side like do these two help, one another in theoryes, orwould you be better off? would a creative person to be better offspending a hundredpercent of the time ith the creative? I think it dependsnow it's a bit of a couple answer, but the hope is in the plan and the path isthe dual rule is helping us to be more creative with our product 'cause. I can have final say on where funding goesand time goes and what a culture is II'll sae. The cretit person often isthe lead in the culture for the anncy anyway. But the challenge for me has been I'm not spending enough time on thethings that I want to. I think that's everyone t you just don't, but for sure more so for me now 'cause creative in some ways can someone else can do it. So the the nextin command people can sort of drive the creative but big business decisions financials.You know the CO has to be in those meetings and has to be in those bigclient meetings that are talking about. You know fee and revenue and we'relooking at dealing with New York or the C F o's there like those. I can't sendsomeone on me my behalf, so I have to do those and then, whatever time isleft I can spend on the creative part. I wish it was more balanced, especially in an industry in a timewhere the crave is so important, so that is, but I'm only um seven monthsinto my new role, I think, maybe the first seven months. I have to spend iton the things that are the most transformitial for agency in how wework, I'm hoping that the percentage can skewmore towards creative over in the next year. That's the hope, I think so.There's a woman named Judy John, who is argually the most successful creativeleader Canadas ever had she was at a place called Luburnet andshe was the CEO CCO as well. So she...

...really- and I had I- I was pretty goodfriends with her and she would tell me Theaah like I. I knew that some of the key discins I wasmaking is really going to help affect our product to be better and in myprevious organizations when out was the crative leader. I had a great CEO too.So we were pretty in tune with some of the decisions wemade, but I knew at the end of the day it was her call. Mysie was O femal. Hercall on that final decision outside of the crate of realm, and I didn't always agree right. So nowit's it's my call right or wrong and through my filter of creative productI' making the decisions, so I think clients recognize when they're workingwith DDB, the chief creative is also the chief exact, sends a message foreverywone. There comes works at organization, they know that's the caseto so it starts to create the culture of this, our global positioning to you. Weare doubling down on crativity our founders gun in Bill Burnboch, who, asreally the gives credit to or H, he's given creditas who brought the whole revolution of crativity in advertising. I thinkadvertising before was. You know, like basically announcements of what is newand prought up t bilburmback in the sixties, really brought in crativity aspart of what advertising could be. So that's what our founder created and ourleaders globally are saying, we're in this whole world of data and analytics,and all these other things that are Um. You Know Ai, O, whatever crativity.Still the thing, that's going to move US Ford and we're a clients really needfrom us, so I think it ws a good decision for me obviously to take onthis role in within this company. How do you figure out how to Split YourTime? t an do you aethere any paxes, Nover, Hackis or upward, but do youhave any habits that you ou use to play in your weeks or days orelocate your time or decide what to focus on? I think tha people. Isurround myself with really Hav to help me. The crative leaders have to likebring me in in those kemomns where they really think it's an important moment. I thinkthe businessside leaders also have torespect. I might not be there all the time for them. ECAUSE, I'm focusing onsomething else. 'cause. They again know that an result of our product is mostimportant, so they might forgive me not being part of a financial call or I'min a you know, big crative presentation, so I'm not in an operations meeting, sothey might do a bit more as well everyone's taken on a bit more. So Ican do you know not a good job on both so and what do you do to keep things arechanging so quickly in that space? What do you do to keep learning and stayrelevant or you travel a lot? Are you reading a lot W?What do you do to t say relevant? I think this g again go back to my beingfired out of my first for my first five job. I absolutely believe that if you don't stay relevant and youcan't contribute a lot constantly, that you're going to be left behind and be if you have to beindispensable, so I out of insecurity or fear partly unhealthy, try to keep up as much as I can,because if I don't like I'll be irrelevant so in ourindustry, like I'm always reading about the latest thing, it's partly out offascination 'cause t s, it's so exciting, our our industry and andinnovation, and all the new things that are happening. But it's also because Iknow I have to and Um clients are looking for that from me. Ihave to have conversation with cliens all the time and I they look to me tobe the one pushing them. I cant Hav clients tell me about a new technology.That's coming out or marketing idea, 'cause. Then I then, what good am I tothem? Th Y they're. Looking for me for that at the same time, Li I really enjoy as an agencypositioning everywhere. I've been to be...

...the as much as we can be the industryleader in the cutting edge. So Alli'm always pushing my teams like, let'swhat's the latest thing, let's keep pushing on that again, trying to trackthe right people that think about those things. So it's something that M. Iwant people to teach me. I keep learning. I do it for both good reasonsand maybe a bit of insecurity reasons. You've won a ton of awards, includingtwenty five canlion awards top ads of the year bunch of recognitions fromFast Company for top ads and innovation. Is there one campaign or war that stands out? Is oesn't Hav to be your proudest, but Ireally really proud accomplishment. I think the sick, kids, one that youmentione is important 'cause. It really changed at least in Canaa. Would an AD agencycould do solving real user problems? It's tough 'cause. It has a bit of a that that thing it's been ten years orso since it or was the frequancy biass or something so sometimes as much as I love innovationand technology, our team did a in New York did a Rolics Campaign for theOscars that is so beautiful and just amazing engaging that. I I lovedthat what they did there. We I mentioned that prosthetic leg that webuilt came up with it. An emphivious procetic lag. It was the first one for a veteran. Typically, when you go swimm,you have to take off your prose glect to go swimming or put on another prosthetic leg thatswims and one that walks. So again, a UNMEAT need. No one thoughtthat that's even important, but our team had this idea. 'cause, you can',so people withwith, prostetic legs can't do a trafon because they have toput on different legs for swimming for cycling for running. So the first ideas coan. We come up with the first crathlon prothetic leg. Now, there's alot of rules in the Olympics and pelendigames that don't Alit to do certain things. So, OK, well,there's still a need here for people to come up with prosetic legs. We workwith this hospital hospital systems to invent the first anthebiis poshetic lag,so there's like dozens of people in the USA. Now that have these legs thatallow them to walk on the beach with their kid and then go run in the waterand swim, which is amazing, at's, amazing yeah. I wanto ask you quicklyabout celebrating with the team mhm so conversations, especially in the startup world, that I've been a part of you're moving, so quick and trying togrow so quickly that we often fail to stop and CELEBRATEYA. Is theresomething anything that you do? As with your teams, when I guess the awardshows are a great reason to stop and pop a bottle, champagne and celebratewith everybody. But what do you do to recognize when you to you as a team? Dosomething well well te currently for sure, there's, there's monumental moments that happened, thatyou can't help it celebrate, so a big award or Um a big client win as well or B campaigngets released. Those are obvious ones, I would say- and of course, there's UM times of year like end of the YearCelebration Holiday Party or is usually a summer event as well, that peoplecome together for, but our coming is a good job. Every month we have it'scalled hotdog Friday and everyone comes together and we celebrate people. Wecelebrate successes, we celebrate Um new hires, say goodbye to people thatare are leaving, and it's a great moment for Everhen to just cometogether and look everyone in the Iye once usually got their head down. Sothis is o r moment work and I'll see each other. It's called hot o Friday, but it's nothotdogs. It's it's like a pretty good meal that we spend pretty good money onfor people O. it's Gotto be good enough. Food people come to it, so Um peoplecome and they have a conversation,...

...might have a guess speaker that does it.So it's a great way. It may not be a celebration like raw ra, but it's acelebration of US coming together, which I think is important in Argety'cause I was goingto use recollaboration, but I've actually sortof vedoed the word collaboration in our office to change it to interdependencecollaboration is helping interdepends as we depend on each other and we needeach other to be successful, which is, I think, a stronger word to create thatUm desired result but yeah. I I don't, I would say overalthough. I don't thinkwe do enough to answer your question. I think I industryes in it in a difficulttime too 'cause the revenue isn't what it used to be so sometimes celebrationscost money. If you're a big, great startup, makinglots of money, you might, you might be able to have that big party and flyaround to Disneyworld. But if we have a good summer party, then we'll we'lltake that that's good. I, like hotdog Friday, Ihad en visioned like barbecued hotdogs, but you you go a little bit yeah, butit's a good start. Our founder went to a client lunch barbecue or somethingthe same as a Frank Palmer, and they planned this whole barbecue event, butthen actually no one was working the barbecue, so he said I'll do it, so he cookedupdogs for everyone. At this event, as a very senior person as quint events,so he became famous like Oh yeah, he's the guy that ran the hotdog Barbecuthin 'cause. He said basical Lik, if no on's en do it I'll do it so became Hodog Friday. We have the whole room dedicate to him called the frank roomand it's got all. These ketchup tops that designed his face. Basically so umyeah he was a a pretty remarkable person. That's awesome, yeah last one.Is there any advice: You'd give your callit twenty five year old self. Ifyou could rewind the Tae back to twenty five, I mean my. My experiences were quite different, soI would say I don't don't give up keep at it. Knowing the where netted outstay the course don't get too down n yourself, you don't have to have it allfiket out and M. of course, I would say: Maybe you want to learn a bit quickerto work a bit harder, but I think life is pretty hard and probably hardertoday for the twenty five year old. So I don't know what the status Buc peoplechange their jobs m five times in their career or sometig like not even justcompanies like the actual cur that they're doing so. I think it's prettythere to say, like don't put too much pressure on yourself the world, theworld's hard enough, so you know Anjoy yeah, that's good good vice! This hasbeen great. Thank you so much for I know you've got a lot of demands onyour time, so I really appreciate you absoluty down an crape sharing some ofyour life lessons and hopefully listeners Finin. Quite al e Yoga thankGart. You've been listening to theIviontminor potcast to ensure that you never miss an episode subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player, or visit Ivy dotca forward, slashentrmrenership. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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