The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

21. Improving communication in a WFH World

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

With millions forced to stay indoors due to the Coronavirus pandemic, the concept of Work from Home (WFH) has gone mainstream.
Working from home has its benefits: Reduced commutes, added convenience, increased family time, and has made it far more acceptable to wear sweatpants to "work".


At the same time, this new working dynamic has created complexities in how we communicate, especially as we add more people to the virtual space. Conducting meetings, delivering presentations, and teaching classes virtually can be challenging, and often requires new tactics and communication tools to make the best of this new communication dynamic.

Eric Janssen welcomes back Eric Silverberg and Eli Gladstone of Speaker Labs to share their wisdom on how to be better communicators in the new WFH world.

You're listening to the IVIONTMRENERpodcast from the Piere L Moriset Institute, Forante Preneurship at theIvy Business School in this series, Ivenre Preneur, an Ivy Faculty member,Eric Jahnson, will anchor the session. What let you guys introduce yourselvesfor the audience that may not know you yet go ahead. I'm Eric Hope. You canrecognize me by my voice, because you can't actually see us hopefully, and Isound a little bit different, but I am Eric and I want one of the cofoundersof speaker labs and I get to with my friendy. I teach people how to becomeamazing public speaker's best job in the world and on you lie the othercofounder and we've been we've been at this for a little over three years now,and it has predominantly just been us in a room with a group of peopletalking about public speaking demonstrating public speaking watchingpublic speaking and since all this stop of Cove Ien, I it that's, definitelychanges the game press and it's exciting to try to think about how that impact'scommunication, which is a big part of what we talk mot every day. Great well. Thank you guys for thereintroduction. So to kick things off, I I'm seeing a lot of content on how totransition to digital and how to manage a remote team in this new reality, butand I'm actually hearing two different sides of the story. So on one hand, Iactually did do a little bit of homework before we're speaking todayand there are companies that having gone more remote than they normallywould. Team feedback is great because the teams are enjoying more flexibility.Clients are seeming to like it more because the default is to go videoversus go over the phone, so they feel like they're, actually getting moreface time, even if it's digital, the data supports that net promotor scoresfor some of those companies are actually higher now, and so there aresome positives on the negative side. However, having run the last two weeksof my classes, digitally it's, it's actually very challenging. DigitalCommunications is not in person communications, and so I thought I'dstart with. While there are some positives, maybe you guys can walk us throughwhat's different about digital communications versus in personcommunications, and this is apprelude to why it's actually, in my opinion,more challenging. So what's different about in person versus digital, I meanthere's a lot different. I think one thing I would just quickly comment onwhen you said it seems like NPS is op and people are feeling good with moreflexibility. That talks a lot about the positive experiences, but it doesn'tnecessarily talk about the positiveity, an outcomes and I think part of what makes some of thistype of communication this digital, remote communication challenging. Isthat it's harder to get depth of communication, it's harder to get areal, meaningful connection around ideas and, ultimately, when people feelgood that contributes to more productivity and better outcomes. Butultimately, it's the quality of ideas and equality of communication thatpeople are able to share that contributes to the quality of outcomes,and so I'd be curious to see a more londitutinal study on how ourbusinesses performing not just how are people rating their quality, O theirexperience getting to take phone calls, maybe in satpats yeah. The other thingI'll say too, is that I think, maybe part of the reason that there's somepositivity around us a'll being forced to go to digitalcommunication is because one on one digital communication isn't actuallythat bad. I think that when you're having a conversation with only oneother person, it's really easy to digitally or virtually bounce ideas offeach other and to have a conversation I mean we've all been speaking on thephone for our whole lives and whe you're speaking only one other personit works, but Eliand. I because of what...

...we do for a living. We always look atcommunication through the Lens of public speaking, and I think thatspecifically public speaking or speaking, one to many virtually iswhere things start to break down and start to suck a little bit. So it's notall communication that t that isn't as good virtually. I think it's mainly theone to many communication making a presentation leading your teamdiscussion, those sorts of things I think have probably suffered as aresult of this ecause. This is this is better than a phone call. Our listnersprobably won't be able to see us, but we're we're recording this remotely. Ican see you guys right now, so we're doing this, recording it over some zoomtechnology. So I I can see you I'd argue that this is better than us doingthis over a phone call. I can see Whenn, you want to say something or when youdon't, you can sort of lean back. I can. I can read your body language, you're,nodting right now, you're smiling so you're agree with what I'm saying. Sothis is better than a phone call, but it's not better than in person. So,the last time we did this, you were actually we were in the same roomtogether and Therewas, just a different energy. When you could literally reachacross the table and touch someone so better than phone call. This is worsethan real life. I think I I would agree. I Hin there's really there's two likecategories of things that compromise the quality of communication. One isscale the more people you have in the communication, the more diffusion ofresponsibility there is by people to speak. If you have fifty peoplelistening to a speaker, then each person themselves doesn't feel the sameresponsibility to engage and respond, so scale can dilute the quality oncommunication and distance can Tando Tho quality of communication anddistands tea phone like distance can be created by speaking on the telephone itcould be created by speaking through a camera, and even though we're seeingeach other there's a distance here and when you're in person there's thisthere's this palpable energy that is available to you, even though you're it doesn't feel likeit's that different from US looking at each other through a camera there's Ican. I can sense a movement about to happen, not just watch it hapconing,and so I think, when you are dealing with remote communication, you'redealing with a distance that is hard to navigate, sometimes- and if you addmore people to the communication and that's the public speaking elementyou're now deluting Equaini communication by having more scale andthat's a challengeent than too h. So let's try to divide this up. Then whatare? What are the different types of public speaking or digitalcommunications? Eric you alluded to this th, the one to many sort of killsoff the feedback Goup. So I know you you talk about this and some of yoursessions. So what are the different types of communications? And are theythe same digitally? Do they? Do they translite differently break that downfor use? They think they definitely translate differently. Digitally onthatnote of Beeback loop, though people always ask us in our courses why publicspeaking is hard, and you mentioned and freed backloop and Eli mentioneddifusion of responsibility, and that part of my public speaking is hardbecause you can't have a conversation. It's not iterative or diological. Likeit is when you're having normal conversations that arent one to manyand so the fact that the feedback loop suffers when you're public speaking inperson, it's even worse, when you're communicating digitally because atleast whe' I' public speaking in person, I can at least read your fatialexpressions. I can ask for a show of hands. I can pick on someone inparticular. Look at them and start. You know, asking them to contribute her orto discust or to ask me a question when you're public speaking virtually-I don't even know if anyone's paying attention- and I don't know if they'reactually listening. I can't tell if they have questions if they do they're,probably not asking themecause th tponsibility that he I mentioned. Soit's getting the involvement from the audience. It just seems to beimpossible from or through a screen, yeah we're laughing at youright. Now,because your Internet do your...

...connection cut out- and it's just like you got out for two seconds in Eli n,our lauhing, because this is Wi sax yeah. That is why it's suck that'sanother reason why it sex is because technology sometimes doesn't work. Sowhat did you Miss d? Did you have everything I had to say? Yeah? I heardI heard weird most things you cut out for literally just enough two secondsjust enough to be laughable, making fun of viseal communications. Sodon't don't add that outleave that leave that N to podcast, so people cancan actually get a live view of why digital communications, sometrimes, sexor keepin a w. So I mean we're taling on the different kinds of communication.When it comes to remote communication, you can have a conversation and you cando that with one person. You can do that with three people. There's acertain number that when you cross that threshold you've entered into let's say,maybe a meeting where you maybe have one person fascilitating a conversationamongst AA group of people, but it's not just free flowing open, everybodycan contribute, and then the next Laer to that is apresentation remotely where there's one speaker and lots of listeners and whathappened here with three of us is Eric's thin, cuts out a little bit andwe chuckle and we can comment on it and if we wanted to, if we didn't get tegist of what he saying, becauld say: Har, you cut out first, I can try thatagain. But if it's a digital presentation- and it's let's say onespeaker with a room of fifty people- maybe it's a company kickoff meeting ormaybe it's a classroom and there's a teacher trying to teach a class tofifty students. If you cut out for a moment, if there's latency or lags orany techla o whatsoever, you don't really have the luxury of one personquickly, saying hey ot cut out for a second. Can you try that again andthat's one of the things that makes digital presentations uniquely hard,which are different than Aybe, a digital conversation or a digitalmeeting mm yeah and you' hope that I guess I'm usually the Guy Onca. If wehave a team call and I'm not presenting or someone else is speaking, I'm not afraid to immediately say thatsomehony's not working like stop Rigti can't hear you something at's otworking, usually though, especially if you're, if you're, not with a team. Ifit's one to many one to seventy five people like mine was, I could be goingfor thirty seconds a minute two minutes until someone types hin the chat, hey y.just so you know, we haven't heard you for the last three minutes. Like that moods, your flow yeah and italmost never happens there you're an the minority of people who would rideaway, say stop stop someone's, not working. No one does that only you dothat. So you end up, probably not even even knowing that something was brokenyeah. So, let's, let's keep going because I I'm overloaded in my lintonfeed and news feeds with how to do this right and all the things that are greatand we'll get to some of the things. In our opinion that can make the suck lesssuck pillis. I wantet again to why it sucks so bad. It's something that Iwant to start with. Just based on digital. I think thatbeing present in a conversation is going to be a competitivedifferentiator for at least the age group of students that I'm teaching soI've been teaching right now, primarily forte university students. You Know Alitwenty two to twenty five year olds, an ability for somebody to be present in a conversation and not bedistracted. I think, will be a competitive differentator for that age,demographic. But if you stink someone in front of a computer, I in a classroom, if someone pulls outtheir phone, I'm going Ta Callem on it right way. That's just the way that Iam those are the norms in the class on a computer, though there's endlessdistractions that people can look up or type or messages pop up or whatever. SoI think one of the first things that makes it suck from me is that I coultell that I just don't have people as I would normally have them in a room sothat that's one for me why it sucks what why does it suck for you guys? Ijust want to touch on that for one second that exists in person too, butthere's more, you can do about it right.

If I see a student, I one of ourclasses yawning or checking their phone. All I have to do is take three stepscloser to them and they put it down. They just sort of get it there'snothing. You can do when you're live in the room with people that makes themless distracted if you're noticing a distracted audience. But L, like you,said, digitally you there's nothing you can do the distractions are endless. Iagree with you on that. I also think it's the distractedaudience elenent. It reminds me of sort of myself when I'm sitting down towatch a OUTU video if I'm miswatching, Youto B. I want to learn aboutsomething. So I look up on you too, and I'm watching the video and never justwatching the video I'm making a sandwich. I'm letting my dogs out andbuying something on Amazon, weall, texting and responding to emails andwatching the video and obviously I'm making a shittyer sandwich excuse. MyFrench. My dogs are getting let out maybe a little to lay ten on the flooronce in a while buying something on arazonits over price e Sedo scearcionfor the right ine. My tax responses are less high quality. My emails are lessaffective and by interpretation understanding the videos diluted. Sothe distracted audience thing is, I think, a huge element not just for livedigital presentations or even vigital conversations, but also for prerecordeddigital presentations, which is an element that I think some people try to. Some people try to prerecord apresentation and then share it digitally so people can watch it ontheir own time. They don't have to worry as much about the time lags butlatency, but then you run into that istracted audience times. Ten ecausethere's no immediate pressure of. Maybe they see me making the sandwich andtherefore I shouldn't do it S. I think you've hit on a big one. There that's ahuge one. I think another one that I struggle with when it comes to digitalpresentations is the best public speakers are people whoprepare great content and then share it meaningfully with their audience. Butit's not that simple, because sometimes what you've prepared isn't exactly whatyour audience wants, and so the real best public speakers prepare goodcontent, share, mininly with their audience and adapt to the best of theirabilities. Givein a limited understanding of their automence. Theadaptation potential and a digital presentation is so much weaker. It'sbecause you get my sfeet back. It's because there's less influence on theaudience to get them off their phones Ar undistracted and your ability toadapt and move on the fly to increase the quality of your idea, transfer,it's so limited, and I think that sucks 'cause. Ultimately, the goal ofcommunication that scale is to get ideas across meaningfully to morepeople. Yeah, that's a great one. I I feel likeI can walk out of a class when I'm in person, and I can know whether it wentwell or poorly. You know I can walk out and say something was off today. You know Ireally tried to bring it, but I just feel like it didn't resonate. I walkedout of the last four classes that I've done digitally. I don't really knowit's like. I feel like I'm bringing it and I sort of walk away and go. I don'tknow I. I have no idea whether they actually got it or not. So I have ahard time reading whether or not the crowd, whether I didwell or not, whether have they actually got it yeah. I think that's a big onetoo, and a big, a big element of getting a sense of what people areperceiving whether they're getting it or not getting. It is e contact and oneof the funny things about digital communication, whether it's aconversation, a meeting or a presentation, is even though we can seeeach other right now, I'm looking at a picture of you, I'm not looking at you. If I stare into my camera right now nowit looks like I'm looking at you, but now I'm looking at my camera and I'mnot seeing you and so there's this element of broken eye contact. You cansee the person but you're not seeing them the same way as when you're inperson, and that e contact is like hats, the window to the Sol they say. So it'sa it's a big element of strong connection through communication thatyou lose digitally just by the placement of the camera and the videoat your seat Yeh. While we're bashing...

...digital conversations, yeah eash it letem let let's keep it up. Let's keep it going one of the things that Eline, I believe,makes for good presentations or lessons or meetings whatever you have is makingthem entertaining, because, if they're notentertaining, if they're not fun, if they're not engaging, then it doesn'tmatter how valuable they are, because no one was really listening. 'cause,they wereengaged Bo. What you were saying- and I find here's how I like to think of it- Imean ha when I watch a funny movie by myself in my bedroom. I don't laugh even if I think it'sfunny, but when I watched that exact same movie with a group of ten friends,everyone laughs and that's a really good. I think illustration of humansget their energy from each other. Presentations are more fun. Meetingsare more fun when everyone's in the same room and there's this like theemotions or the engagement in the room it becomes contagious. Contagious is adirty word these days. I shouldn't use that one, but that's sort, that's whatit's like everyone laughs together, everyone claps louder. Everyone getssad when something touching happens and those feelings that nauty and sharesthat's part of what makes a presentation memorable, meaningful andmakes you want to listen and when people are all sitting by themselves intheir own rooms, that magic doesn't happen and that sucks yeah or on MuteRight. Maybe it is happening. Maybe some people are laughing, but mostpeople are on mute and you only catch it on video, if they're on mute andthey go like you can see them moving as if they're laughing, but it's just notthe same, you don't get that same energy right. That's the other thing.Not only do audiences get energy from each other, but the present inter getsenergy from the audience, and it's so much harder when you can't read theirenergy for me, the public speaker or you, the teacher or whatever, whateverit is, so that's something that makes it a whole lot less fun and fun is partof what makes awesome. Communication Awesome, yeah M, trying to think aboutwhat I do whuld. I do for my normal classes thatI don't do for digital and trying to see if that has something to do withwyit sucks. So I think about I, my sales classes. I talk abouthaving the importance of having a pregame routine and guess what everybody it's my job toteach, and there are days that I get up and I don't want I to teach- and I lovethis job. This is the best job in the world. I would there's nothing on earththat I would rather be doing. There are days just like everybody else where Iget up and I don't feel like it, but I have to, and so I've developed my ownroutines that get me in the place that I need to be so that by the time I'm on,I want to be there, and so those are things like I, I dress a certain way,so I I dress a certain way because to me that signals at its gotime, Itypically cafinate before I stayn a certain way. I breathe a certain way.If it's a big presentation, I have a certain playlist that I've listened to.I do that even for some of my normal classes, and I have to say that evenwhen I've done some live classes here and lecture, I'm not dressed a certainway. I haven't followed my same pregame routine. So I think there are thingsthat I'm not doing for digital that I actually probably should be doing. Thatseemed to work for me in real life, yeah e''s, a good point. I I think thatprobably the best presenters or the best teachers do have rituals like thatto get them in the mood and it's really easy to let those things slip whenyou're sitting by yourself getting ready in your Home Office or yourbedroom or whatever it might be. Yeah. Another thing that I find I do a lotwhen I'm in person, whether it's one on one one on five or a full large groupof people, is I leverae whiteboards and I leverage foot tarts and in write alot, because I myself I'm a visual person. So it helps me express ideas,but a lot of people are visuale on the way that they learn and they're simingabout sharing visuals when it comes to remote communication, especially remotepresentations. That's a little bit...

...limited when you're, giving a remotedigital presentation having a white board behind you and trying towhiteboard on the fly. That's that's really messy. Some people might bewatching on a smaller screen. Some people might be sitting further fromtheir screen. There's there's a real big difficulty with the clarity of thevisual and, if you share your screen, a little white slide and you're in, likeMicrosoft, paint fom, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five and you'retrying to draw it's not going to be clean. It's not going to be llegibleand well. People will forgive messy writingon a whiteboard they're, less forgiving, or at least I'll speak for myself, I'mless forgetving to really squigly messy lines on a white screen, chair,digitally and then on top of that one of the things that both Arican I doa lot when were giving presentations, lives s. We use powerpoint some ofthose Goos Lise Kan or whatever. We use a visual aid when you're, giving adigital presentation- and you give the visual aid te visually becomes thepredominaindividual when you're in person. Even if you have a massivescreem behind you, you are still the fokulpoint as long as you're, makingeffect ive, slats you're still the fokalpoint, but when you're doing adigital presentation- and you got to share your screen, so people can seeyour slides. The slides are taking up eighty ninety percent of the actualscreen that your audience is looking at, and your son you're in a tiny littlebox in the bottom right or top right corner and that's a that's a difficultthing to deal with. That's a really good O, so you'retalking a little bit about physical environment. So, let's, let's stay onthat nper a second because physical versus digital environment verydifferent. I think for me, if you, if you've done your homework and set upthe physical environment properly, when you'representing in real life it sortof just works, I don't need to monitor the door. I don't need to monitor achat quee. I don't need to like help someone else out with their audio orunmute them if they wantwant to talk. They just talk, and I I find myselfwhen I'm even when I'V at my best doing this digitally, I still find myselfdoing a bunch of other things. People are coming in late and I've got to letthem in someone tells me something's not working and someone's trying totalk with her, so I'm presenting and then I'll jump back to administrativeand close. My full screen share that I'm presenting and then go back toshare it again. I just find it's like almost for the full hour start, stopstart stop and wearing two different hats, so it's a tonnual menton killertotally and a flow killer. Who knows, iftyou're going to find your way back to the exact right point or forget whatyou were going to say or where you were at it doesn't work as well for the flowof your content or for the momentum of your delivery yeah anything else, anyother reasons why it's not preferable White Sucx. I think that's a pretty good list.We've been riffing pretty hard on wite sucks yeah and let me be clear, I thinkit does suck there's one last final thing I guess is e and I one of our core beliefs is that thedifference between amazing public speakers and aspiring public speakersis their relationship to nervousness fear. The psychologiball cinstraintsthat come along with communicating and those fears are different foreveryone. Some people are afraid of large audiences. Others are more afraidof intimacy. Some people are more afraid in front of strangers. Otherslove strangers, but they're really nervous speaking in front of family andfriends. So so the psychological element of public speaking varies fromperson to person, but I can tell you that my biggest fear is not being goodenough. It's not about not getting my content right, it's about! Well, no oneenjoyed that that wasn't fun. Everyone felt kind of met, and I had a reallybig fear around. I cannot create the same type of awesome environmentdigitally like I can when I'm live in the room, controlling the experienceand so, quite frankly, I'm kind of afraid of digital communication andwhen you're afraid the best version of...

...you just doesn't show up. That's justhow it works, so my bear of not making this awesome because I feel like it'sbasically impossible. That impedes my ability to be good. It's really assimple as that HM. That's a really interesting one. Ber's like there's Lie physical space, mental there's, preparation, there's a bunch ofdifferent buckets here, so people sounds like better than phone calls. So maybe thisis why, right now, with a lot of remote work going on, people are like o. Thisis actually good because they're getting more at least digital face time,but presentations and teaching, I would say, is not as good digitally as it isin person. How can we make it even a little bit better? Do you have have anyrecommendations for how we can take some of the big things that maybe makeit suck in the most and try to make it a little bit better I'll start with something really reallysimple? And we talk about this a lot in our live communication program too,which is your ability to become really really comfortable, not getting thefeedback and comfortable in the silences before people start gettinginvolved. So I mean you can picture being in an audience and, and thepresenter says, are there any questions and then crickets right and at momentsof crickets, because no one's raising their hand is really awkward? Will nowmultiply that by a hundred when you're speaking digitally because the difusionof responsibility for everyone on their own end, hoping that someone else isgoing to shine in and because some people write their questions in? Let'ssay the chat of the of the Google hang out or the zoom meeting or or whateverit is that you're using, and so you need to become really reallycomfortable, not getting the feedback and really comfortable taking some timeto just wait for it. Because it just takes longer so the more comfortableyou can get in silence and waiting a little bit. I think that better offyour presentation's going to be because t the the contribution that you want to getfrom your other team members or your students or your audience, they'regoing to come on the other end of that silence. So you need to be reallycomfortable waiting for it to wait even longer than you would forthe in person when you're digital yeah you're going to have to because ittakes people a second to get over. The difusion of responsibility have time totype out their question. If that's the way they're going to do it, and so thefact that it's going to take longer, it means you need to wait longer. You cando some creative things like saying whenever I ask for questions, I knowthat it's going to take a little while for you to write your questions intochat, so I'm going to be silent. I've going to comp the sixty and I heaethey're, going to wait for a foll minute and see how many questions comein. So you can play with it and set some expectations to make it a littlebit less scary to just sit there, but at the end of the day, sometimes you'regoing to have to just sit there, especially in presentations whereyou're hoping for discussion ore, hoping for QNA yeah. That's a great ongive it a little bit of extratime. I think on that, on that discussion,peace in live public speaking even reallylarge audiences. You can create a fee back loop, you can ask questions to theaudience and you can get them to respond and you can create dialogue.ARCAN IERE OT, a conference in the states one time and we were giving apresentation to an audic about three hundred people and we ended up having aconversation about Sushi just calling on random people in the crowd talkingabout their favorite things to eat, and I go for Sushi and it's sort of it wasjust fine d. It was playful and that's available to you. I think, when you'retrying to create a bit of a Fbau or get some form of discussion, it needs to bea bit more preplanned when you're doing it in the remote presentation. So maybeyou actually have a slide where you put up a question before multiple choice.Answers- and you say I I'm Gont, show the question here and I want to knowwhich of these answers you think is right and on the next screen we'regoing to share what the right answer is. There are some tools. I believe thatyou can do to actually create. I real interact. Hon People can submit theiranswer. You can see what percentage of people the point is. The feedback needsto be a little bit more plan and a little bit less at Hawk. It's not tosay you can't, like Eric said if you're going to do at Hawk, pose your question,set the expectation that you're going...

...to sit in silence for a little bit towelcome those questions o give them time to come in. But in the scenariowhere you want to really optimize the discussion with a group of people askedscale digitally. I think it needs e bit more preplanned and a bit morestructured, yehthat's good, that's good! The GREB hem there's one more thingthat came to mind for me Eric you were talking about how, when you're communicatingvirtually it seems like you're, both the presenter and the administrator andthat's no fun, because I ruins your flow both in your content and in yourbomentum of your delivery. So if you had the luxury of you know, if you're ateacher put one of the students in charge of the D men, you know give themamidrights, make sure they're the ones taking the questions. They're the onegetting people back into the virtual room if, if they got kicked up becausethe poor Internet, or whatever, make sure that they're the ones reading allthe questions that have accumulated in the chat to you. So if you can, or ifyou're, on a team and you're not teaching sign someone else on your team, youknow I'm going to be the presenter, but I hope you can nolfacilitate theinmanor or getting all the questions in from the chat or whatever it might be.If someone else can take those admit, tasks off your plate, you might fee alittle bit more free and you might get interrupted a little bit less, becauseyou can only focus on the message that you're trying to to Onbac it's a goodidea. Almost having the person that's doing the content almost have them justshow like they just have to show up and deliver. You know like the environmentis such that and you're. You could assign us to a student as part ofcontribution. You could say like make them the cohost and they just make surethat people can get in that. You can call me if you can't l o you be the onethat tells me that you can't hear me. If you can't hear me, you can allystjust a sign a lot of those addmendities to somebody else. That's a great idea:that's a good one! I think that's a good idea in line presentations too,for when eventually people are able to do that Eric and I will always copepresent- andsometimes you don't have the lossiy of doing this. But if you can, one of us is alwayssitting at the backAF the other person is presenting and if, for some reason the slides go downat the texttops Morgaing, the non speaker goes up to fix, while thespeaker continuous, if a similar thing line as it would be digitally. I thinkit's even more important. Digitally though 'cause there's a lot more tasksbetter than need to be handled aother. This is very little tactic, but mostpeople are probably listening to this auditorily, and so they can't seem asvisual, but for both of you when I stare into my camera lands right now,I'm speaking to you very differently than when I'm looking at your videosand that change. I'm now talking to you 'cause, I'm looking at my camera verses.Now I'm looking at your little pictures and it doesn't feel the same werreveryone listening it makes os feel feel really different. Actually Hae,really ad, and so so I mean Eric mentioned. Fear is a big, a biginhibitor of showing up and being effective in your communication, a lotof people are afraid of not looking at the people on the other end of thecamera. But if you focus on your communication is about how they areable to receive your ideas, then look at the camera when you're communicatingthem and there's a higher likelihood that there want to receive your ideasmore meaningfully, stay more engaged, not check out and check Amazon, ecauseyou're speaking to them, but you lose being able to see their reactions alittle bit. But we've already talked about the fact that digitalcommunication has a weaker feetback loop. So you might need to accept thatand swallow that pill a little bit and then focus on some direct eye contact.That's good! That's really powerful! I don't know that anybody's ever lookedin looked into my eyes like that on on a web GAM. So I like that Um somethingthat has worked for me, and maybe this doesn't work when you maybe ths I'll,ask you opinion on it afterwards. I actually am not a big cold caller inmy classes, but I am when I was when I was doing these virtually this week, soI crept in advance. There was a little many assignment due. I went throughthem before the class and I specifically wrote down some peoplethat I wanted to call on, for...

...individual parts probably ended upcalling on maybe eight people in a o and a one hour class, but I starteddoing it early and I think because they knew that they had like. There was achance they were going to get called on. When I called on everybody, they wereon it, they had great answers and there was nobody that was if they were doing something else. Theydid a good job of hiding it because they were really quickly able to onmuteand give me an answer and didn't have to reask what the question was. Theythey were really on it yeah. I think that that one issomething that I it definitely would work. People will be less distracted,which was one of the reasons that that virtual communication sucks rightpeople will be less distracted if, if they know that they could be caledcalled at any moment, the problem with it, I think, is there's a bit of astigma for teachers or presenters or bracilitators, or leaders who colledcall on the people in their audience. The audience members kind of thing H,you're, just trying to bust me for not paying attention or you're just tryingto be a bit of an ass trying to catch me. You know when I'm when I'm not inmy toes and when I'm not thinking right, so one of the things that I'd probablyrecommend doing if you are going to cold call, which I do think is reallyimportant when you're presenting virtually is let your audience knowthat that's not me, I'm not trying to catch you off guard. What I'm trying todo is I'm trying to make the best of this really limiting environment. So Ihope you'll bear with me until we can be live again in person, I'm going tohave to use cold, calling os something that's going to keep us all engagedalltogether for the hour that we have together today, so that they don'tthink you're doing it for for the wrong reasons. But as long as you coversomething like that, man it'll make everyone pay attention so much better. He has ever given a presentation in oneof your sessions sitting down the whole time. Yes, actually once I really had to dothat, but we both had to do that. We both beenforced into that because of physical ailements. I broke my toe andwe happen to have to be out of town the very next day, and so, if we ended updriving, I didn't even have a chance to go to the hospital that night and thevery next morning we had to deliver our presentation, and so I just sat downthe whole time 'cause I couldn't really walk and it was interesting. There was a couplemoments where I I like, endured the pane and stood up and took two or threesteps. Just because I felt like I needed to switch it up a little bit. Imean granted we're speaking for a long time. Our workshots are Langfy, but itcertainly felt different for me as the speaker. I believe it probably felt alittle bit different for the audience, but it was definitely manageable. A similar thing happened to me. Ithrewo my neck one day, and so not only did I have to sit the whole time, but Icouldn't even turn you pickture, like zoolendor Havin cantern left like forone day. I was not an ambiturner, I I couldn't move anything, but but I stillstuck with it and decided to do the presentation. The interesting thingthat happened, though, at the end for both Eli and I, when e I broke his toe.When I drow my neck was, I came out Keli the end of my presentation when Ihad to sit down and not move around the room- and I said man that was so muchworse. I really sucked today, and he ie said what the hell were you talkingabout. That was still great and the same thing happened with him. He cameout to me afterwards and he said I wish I could have been walking around theroom I could tell they were just so much less engaged and I said that'stotally made up in your head. You were equally good sitting down and tha.That's back to the psychological elements. Is You're going to have to beOky, not knowing what your audience thought beating yourself up about how it Wens,because often those those those critiques that you have ofyourself they're more delusion than anything else. So I mean. Obviously Ido agree that if it was binary presenters that walk around the roomare better than ones that stand still the whole Timor that sit down the wholetime, but you can still bry awesome in spite of that. As long as you have theright mind set yeah, that's a good point. So something that you guys talk about isvariante right. If you and I find that in person, I will roam up and down the aisles all getreally close to somebody. Ond Get quiet on you far away and get loud and youcan like you can vary a lot more, and...

...maybe this is just my own psychologicallimitation, but I I limit myself more for sure. When I'mdoing digital I try to bring I'm like. Okay, I really Gott get fired up. Igotta BE LOUDER THAN I'd normally be loud, On't have to be wineer and softnd. You almost have to like. Do it more extremely yea, Bu physically, I find ithard. You know we're used to. I guess I used to doing these Po guesinterviewstyles. Typically then sitting down, but when I'm presenting I want to usethe space I want to move around and when I you could you could feel it. Ithink you cand hear people in their energy when they start to like sit backand relax and lean over a little bit when they're presenting. So I think,there's probably a smaller box that you stay within, but still using the usingthe variance has to be a part of it. I think yeah mean thiss sort of came to me right now, butmaybe the best thing you can do if it's not necessarily that sitting down asbad. It's that you are bringing a different type of energy when you aresitting down, but I mean I think of one of my friends, his name's Jesse he'she's on the air, sometimes at Sportstat he's on the desk. I've never seen him stand up on T V,but he's awesome. Think about the energy that Stephen, a Smith, bringswhen he's ranting about basketball sitting down ISO. So it's less aboutsitting sucks and more about you better to just bring the energy pretend topretend your sports reporter for the afternoon and bring that type of energy.When you're sitting down when you're, making our next virtual presentationyeah I mean I just decided to stand up and and move around a little bit and Ido has I feel a little bit different yeah. It totally heels different. I I'mnow standing right now and I feel like there's, there's a little bit of a kickof energy in thece. I think there's something to be said for I'm further away from the camera rightnow. So, even if I were looking at the Lens at the actual camera, I don't knowhow the eye contact is. I don't know how the facial expressions come acrosswith the video, but I think whether or not it adds value to theaudience from a visual perspective with me, standing out ith me further awayfrom the camera. If it has value to be a speaker- and I feel good walkingaround the room then tap into that a little bit, but just make sure thatyou're also including the sitting down looking at the camera, because there'sa lot of emotion and and meaning that's conveyed to facial expressions n,that's one of the things. That's important about digital communicationis being able to see a person's face and actually getting to engage with their expressions, so Ithink, fill free to walk around and certainly that anergizes. You just makesure that you also bring Intho variation to the citing, which is acore part of this and lepers tef. Facial expression and sort of small,more Manusia of Variation Co feel like I've got a better playlist or hitlistfor next time. I do digital lecture style. One last thing that I want tofinish with. Is there anything you think when U S present, to a ton ofdifferent audiences, all over the place, different locks of life, differenttitles and roles? What makes a really good audience member like? What canpeople do to be a really good audience member in person? And is there anylessons from that that you can, in order to be a really good audience,members digitally there's SOM things that come to mind.For me, the first is try to hold yourselfaccountable to not being distracted. I I think it's it's basically animpossible task. Your notification is going to pop up that you just got a newtext message and and you're GOINGTA get. You know you're going to get remind atO crap. I really need to buy those concart tickets because they went onsale at ten o'clock, but the presentation's going on things aregoing to pop up PSO, be forgiving with yourself, but also be a little bit hardon yourself and try to stay engaged, engaging an audience virtually is sohard, so try to eliminate the distractions and then the second thing-and this applies to audiences, both in person and even more so virtually isgive the presenter a break and when they ask for involvement or discussion,try not to fall for that difusion of responsibility. Type. Something intothe chat. Ask a question: Live,...

...make an objection or even be hard onthe presenter and and Pulk the holes. In what they're saying the presenter isdying for the feedback in the involvement, so whether it's positive,negative or just curiosity, make it happen and try to get it a little bitmore interactive and I think everyone will be better off for it. That's GreatYeah! I think one other thing is in a live audience. There's ever so oftenthat one person in the audience who is sitting on the edge of their seatsmiling ear to ear nodding like crazy whenever they just to say that they'rewith you they're laughing at a joke, even if it's completely missing anyhumor whatever they are just like. So there to make the presenter feel goodand well if everyone in every audience was like that, then I think the speakerloses a little bit of accuracy and how their audience is receiving theircommunication. So I'm not suggesting that every single person go and smileyear to year and nod your head up and down incessantly and laugh at everysingle unfunny joke. But when it's a digital conversation, you caget a sense that the speaker mightnot have a clear understanding of what therenot people are. INTEURNALIZINGIDEAS: trol a couple of extra hatnots in there toss a little pity, laugh onceor twice give an ice, io, grin or even a full smile, and I think you'reprobably going to instill a little bit more comfort and confidence thin. Yourspeaker, which then will culminate and then being able to share their ideasbetter for you and you get to consider some new nuggets of information toI'Mnotmad into your own. Existing use. That's pre! Anything else come to mindfor you eric. I was going to go to typically what I've en an audience.There's really two groups that I notice there's the groups that are the sourcesof energy, the ones that are smiling and nodding and you're like all right.I've got them. I can say anything and I've got them and then there's thepeople that are like distracted and out of it and usually I'll go to the person,that's distracted and out of it, and if I can get them on board, then I knowI've got everybody else MHM, and I find that challenging when you're doing digital, becausethere's always going to be, even if you ask everybody to be on video, there'salways going to be somebody who's, not who's, just called in or on mute orwhatever. ORS camera is conveniently broken right. Yeah S, it's crazy e can'get itto work, so I think to to be a good audience.Member digitally participate to the fullest extent that you can digitallyso like be at your desk. You, if you can, you know, be on Moueto not be annoying but like have your mouse ready to come off, then you'vebutton to contribute to the conversation, use the camera functionand tto. Your point, like variance, even if I'm on mute and I'm agreeingI'm nodding my head right now but, like you, can't see it if I'm not indigially yeah, Oh yeah,for sure r like thumbs up, you know like I, I agree with you. I think youalmost have to as an audience member go over the top with your reactions yeah. I agree and the otherthing where I thought were going e whic, you didn't really say explicitly, was do what is intended for you to be doingif this is meant to be consumed on your laptop, because I'm going to be sharingsome visual aids and you're meant to have your camera on, like don't call inon your cellphone in your car. Make sure you're on the laptop and notseeing the small, all crappy version on your on your eyephone, because youcan't read the slide that way so try for your presentor to consume it. Theway it's meant to be consumed. Yeah yeah, that's good. I think it washelpful for me at least I I'm still a digital presentation, rookie I've done thousands and thousands of conferencecalls and videocalls mainly for teams, but rarely would I do it as a you know,two hour presentation or class...

...discussion. So it's a little bit of adifferent format for me and I'm still definitely learning so I got some goodtips. I'm excited trough my next few classes and try to use some of the tipsthat h've gotten, but I appreciate guys thank you so much for dropping somedropping some knowledge and rifing on the topic of digital communications andhow to make it stuff less appreciate. E thim Heyeah was fun. I mean Hei, we intended to say t the beginning thatwe are live public speaking experts, not virtual public speaking experts. So,instead of saying at the beginning here here we are saying- and now you know-take everything we said with a grain assault, because we don't have too muchexperience doing virtual presentations either. But hopefully you got a nuggetor two and it was certainly fun to Skootball and and play with I topic and-and you know, try to give our two cents on what we what we do know. That said, the demand right now ishigher for sure, at least in my lifetime than it's ever been. So ifwe're all hoping that we return to some semblance of normal city over the nextlittle bit but seems like over the next few weeks, at least digital will be theprime means of communication. So we may have tose Sero oer a little bit the contact of the global context asfar as airconit think about it a little bit, but this conversation hascertainly made to think about it. Even more. So that's awesome thanks for thatpool. Thank you guys. Precedeou time think it easy. Mixrabna you've beenlistening to the Iviondminor potcast to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player, or visit Ivy dotcaforward, slash anthmrenership. Thank you so much for listening until nexttime.

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