The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

22. Mastery: Learning how to learn with Zero-to-Mastery founder Andrei Neagoie

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Staying at home has created an opportunity for many to learn new skills; whether it is a new language, how to code, or make bread. Before you start your next learning opportunity, wouldn't it make sense to learn HOW to learn so that the process is more effective, efficient, and fun?

On this weeks podcast, Eric Janssen is joined by Andre Neagoie, a software developer, turned entrepreneur, and currently lead instructor at his own company, Zero to Mastery (ZTM): the highest-rated programming course on the web that has graduated over 200,000 students.

Andrei shares his wild entrepreneurial journey that has taken him from launching his own adventure races, teaching surfing in Nicaragua, and finally to Silicon Valley and Toronto, where he worked as a Senior Software Developer before founding ZTM.

Before you spend the next few months burning countless hours learning a new language, or skill, spend some time learning how to learn the right way.

Hello, I vhe entreprer lisners beforewe get to our regularly schedule programming, I wanted to give a littlebit of an Intro to the interview you're about to listen to. We've been excitedto release this interview for a long time. We thought, given the newrealities of cobed. Nineteen setting in now would be the ideal time tointroduce a topic on learning how to learn so before you make an investmentin learning a new language, learning to code learning, really any new skill,wouldn't it make sense to spend a little bit of time, figuring out howyou should go, but learning effectively and efficiently in the first place. Somy interview today is with Andre Nguo, who is a software developer, Tur N NEntrepreneur and currently lead instructor at his own company, ZeroTomastery, which is the highest rated programming course on the web. That'sgraduated over two hundred thousand students over the past two years,Andrey has had a wild entreprerial journey. That's taken him fromlaunching his own Adventure, races, teaching surfing in Nicaragua and,finally, the Silicon Valley in Terono, where he worked as a senior softwaredeveloper. Before launching his own learning companies zerodemastering, hisnew course is, of course, actually on learning how to learn it's going tohelp you improve and memory pructivity and uncovers a lot of the skills of theworld's top performers and learning strategies that they've used, which isback by research, Andre, actually generously provided a coupon code forlisteners of the potcast for fifty percent off on his new course. So youcan go to zerodmastery DOT IO! That's zero! Two, the letters to masteredot,IO, clickon learning how to learn course and on the checkout. You can usethe coupon code, hussl h US tle for fifty percent off his monthlymembership. He assures me that this is the absolute best offer that he's evergiven out you're not going to find another better offer in the in yourterm future or anywhere on the web. So that's zero to mastery. The letter, Co,dot, io and the course is learning to learn. So before you spend the next fewweeks or months, burning countless hours, learning a new language,learning, new skill learning, whatever spend a few hours learning how to learnthe proper way without further de here's, my interview with Andrea Goifrom Zero tomastery Andre thinks for coming in and being aguest and being on the PA cast glad to be here. I thinks for having me it'snice to hang out with you. It has been. It's been a while it's been a long time,so I want to get into the topic of learning how to learn. This is t thepurpose of today's pot gas, but I want to rewind way back to early days foryou. So I know you were a student at the University of Westeurantario and Tit had sort of a winding career you'e done a bunch of different things beforebecoming the founder of seromastery. So would you mind help me fill in theblanks between graduated from Western and founder of this hugely popularonline learning to Code Company all right? Well, it's definitely a Winderoad. So let's try and fill those gaps. MORGANTA start in a location, nowherenear coding and hopefully we'll end up there. So after university graduatedfrom Western awesome experience, I was super excited but had no idea what Iwant to do with my life. So I decided to go to Japan and teach English for ayear. So I was in a village of three thousand people and I taught English erand lived and taught every single person's childthere. So I knew the entire community owne. It was an amazing experience,came back Taugt at a tennis club. Actually I I was atennis club manager, so I was there for another year thinking up of bebusinessideas that I want to do came up with concept of adventurists. That is, hey,wouldn't be great. If every month we did a unique adventure in and roundToronto kind of, recreate that western feeling. So I did that for a bit withfriend from university that was grade that pivoted to doing weekly Torontodatours for travelers coming into Toronto. That was great, nothingsignificant and at the same time I had an idea for let's do an obstacle course:race. 'cause of the time, tough, mutter and and sparn race were becoming reallypopular, so I did that as well d through an event which was great, butnone of those businesses really took off they're, just small, almost breakeven businesses, lots of Fondau and then, after that I joined asstrip, which was a spring breakcompany of all things. I had no sales experience. I actually thought hey, youknow, be tough selling the most expensive trip possible to university students that are broke, sothat was h. That was super fund got some experience, selling to universitystudents and actually getting practicing selling, because at school Iwe didn't have any courses on sales...

...after that that was about a year. WasEnough of me doing that job? Not Enough for me to move on. I moved on toanother travel company and I ended up traveling and teaching about a hundredand fifty tour guids all over the world, essentially how to give proper tourshow to work with customers. I did their payroll. I did their review. I prettymuch a hundred. I had a hundred and fifty people to Babysit. It was a lotof work that time this is about. Five yearsafter a university, I decided that you know what I'll doyoga teacher training that'll be fun, something different. So I did that aswell, decided that you don' want a Shl do yoga and surf retreat. So I alsolearned how to surf. I got my Yogu certificate and I started doing yogaand Surf ucreats in Nicarago that was really fond and successful and through all of this, the entiretime I'm going through the journey. I know I'm talking a lot but we'refilling in the gaps I'm almost done. I realized that there wasn't a tangibleskill that I had. I've done a lot of things. I've learned a lot of things, but therewasn't something tangible where I can go to any company and say hey hire me.This is my exact cill skill, so I was thinking about it and I thought youknow what every time I started a business there was always a developer or a website that I had tocreate, and I threw money to somebody asked for a website and always whatcame back from this black box was something that I didn't ask for, so Ithrew more money in it and something else came back and it was the mostfrustrating process. So I actually quit my job at the time and decided hey fivemonths. Then I teach myself how to Code, so I did that for five months got quitea few offers actually after five months as a full time developer did that for afew years- and I thought Hey, I'm not too bad of this. Maybe I'll teachsomebody else to do what I did so started: Zerto mastery. This was abouttwo years ago, and now we have about a hundred and twenty thousand students.We are constantly expanding our courses and instructors and yeah. We have quitea lot of students from about a hundred and ninety four countries. So quite thejourney, so how many of those get a bunch of businesses? I don no call themprojects like e Gad, a bunch of businesses along the way. How many ofthose were did you have, while also doing afulltime job and how many of those were like left your job in order to focus onthose things all of them were done in conjunctionwith my jobs. So I never took time off from a full time job because they werenever. I never took the plunge or I never thought they would be successfulenough to sustain me. So it's almost like. I never focussed a hundredpercent on that until I decided to teach myself to code- andI saw the power of focusing on something and dedicating your fullattention to that one task interesting. So they were always the overused term,now side Hussles. There were always things that you did after normalworthey said: There's like nine five and then the five to nine. So they wereyour five to nine Gig, exactly exactly and may be sneaking on a bit of workwithin my actual work. But for my sidehassle got it got it. I remember so.I've been following the journey of it and I remember sort of seeing them andyou have one of those I was INSTA. Were you active you active on Instigram Yeah?I I post there occasionally just to have some sort of an image since m yhave students online to search for me. So I remember like following your storyon Instagram and seeing like Oh man he's at, I know he's at astrip andsails, but like he's traveling all over the world he's in Nicaragua He'srunning these surfing retreats it. Just always it had this perception of likehe's kind of figured out he's got like the work life you know. Intermingledperfectly did. Did it feel that way when you were in it or did it feel like?I I'm like wrestling through still trying to figure this out. I wascomplete chaos and mess. It was just widwater rafting through through thejungle and monkeys, Flyinga you and it was a complete mess and the thing isstill now like yeah things are successful. I feel pretty comfortable,but the entire time you're, just alwayslearning new things, th you're doing new things and yeahzrtomastery ispretty successful right now, but there's new things new challenges so ya.Maybe the waters have calmed down a bit, but it's it's never been like that andhonestly. I would never say that I was everstressed or I was ever sfeeling like. I was drowning theentire time I was having fun and yeah. Maybe posting the good moments onInstrogram, maybe not posting the bad moments, but...

...at the same time the lows were alsomade me appreciate the highs as well, but no, my life is still a completemast. Don't let is Raplio or a good good reminder for everybody? Don'tdon't just go by what's on Inscrim, so you this all started when you taughtyourself to code. So what? How did you do that? How in the early days did youfigure out what was going to be the best way to learn how to code? So at the time I knew absolutelynothing about coding. So I have that challenge right. I need to learn atopic that obviously a lot of companies were interested in. I was learning tocode when it was really start to take off and there was just so much demandfor developers out there. But the problem was, I didn't know anydevelopers there wasn't that much resources of the time online. Maybe some of them were outdated, but Ididn't know they were outdated because I knew nothing about the industry. Sowhat I essentially did was I dedicated a month of my time to createessentially my self guided bootcamp with anything that I could get my handson and figure out. What exactly is the the twenty percent that I need to learnright now to get a job as soon as possible, because I knew the reallearning was going to happen when I'm working on a real project with t e realteeps. So my goal was not to be the best evolper and get the best jobs fromthe best companies. It was to get hired as fast as possible, not at an entrylevel but just at a intermediate level, because I knew that that was that's.where the learning starts so I create a curriculum based on online research. Italk to friends who knew developers and eventually formed a curriculum that Ithought by no means was perfect, but I thought would emphasize those skillsthat I'll get interviewed on and lone behold those skills that Iacquired over those five months. By no means was I an expert, but in aninterview you don't have to be an expert. You just have to answer theright questions that they ask interesting, so the goal wasn't learnedhow to be a great developer. In the beginning, the goal was learned what Ineeded to learn in order to get hired to start exactly and because I knewthat to be a great developer. You needed to have work experience so again.During my month of study, I realize that you can't be a great developer withoutwork experience. So to me that was an evident, clear goal that well I need toget hired as soon as possible, because then I'm just getting paid to learn. Ican ask all the questions that I want from all these devulbe friends that Idon't have, but if I work I'm surrounded by developers, so that wasmy goal and that W's my clear cut goal where I only focus on things that willget me through that door got it and your conversation with those early forthose early job interviews was it. It was still very honest rig, likeyou said, look, I'm a junior developer. I I have this baseline level of skilland I'm looking to get some experience like what was your? What was your pitchan those interviews? It was definitely not that pitch 'cause. That sounds. Idon't think anybody would hire me, but I was extremely honest with them. Isaid Ey I've been learning for five months. This is all the things thatI've done in those five months. I know that you're, I'm not going to be your bestdeveloper right now by guarantee you in six months from now, I'm going to beone of your best hires. Now that sounds amazing and I'm sure the people mighthear that, but there's also other factors. When you interview to getasked to well here, herea some coding assignments Wele, they would ask you todo a fewcoding assignments. I would always go abov the at do extra and yeah,because these coting assignments are take home assignments, I'm able toresearch and spend time on it, but I I produced more than what somebody wouldproduce and they saw that. I think I think that's that's. The key thing wasthat they knew right away, that I wasn't the best hirhe or maybe the best option,but they knew that. I I wanted it more thananybody else and by the end of they interviewed I ma interview. I made surethat they knew I would work harder than any of their employees, and I thinkemployers value that. So I actually, when I interviuwed I interviewed at abunch of companies, and I moved on to only the ones that I liked and Iactually got the offers all the offer. So I never got rejected actually,except for one. That said, no to me that actually came back three monthslater and took me out to dinner to try and give me an offer, but I think itwasn't because I was the best of Olper.

It was simply because they knew howmuch drive I had and it sounds cheesy, but it works you're, communicating withhumans and humans connect on that and but then you may you were making a bet.So you were saying on yourself basically see saying youhire me and within six months I'll be one of your top and but at that pointin your mind, you're, knowing that you, like you, don't know, you don't know itall yet so you're you're saying within six months I'm going to learneverything I need to learn in order to be one of your top. That's the classicstrategy and learning and one of their philosophies an doing something well ashaving sticks. If you have staks, if you, if something's on the line, you'remore motivated to learn, I knew that they weren't going to fire me after sixmonths, because I was on the top devoloper. But me personally, I madethat promise. That's that stake, that's something that I knew that I have todeliver on, or at least get really really close to. Otherwise, I'm a liar-and that's I just creatit for myself, intrinsic motivation to have that stakeof Wellthee six months, I'm going to hustle and learn as much as possibleask as many qustions as possible and try and do all the right things too. Hopefully, in six months for themto say all right, now's a good hire. Why is learning an important skill tolearn? I think in our current day and age, things are changing so fast as amatter of fact in in twenty eighteen world economic formdid a study to look at couriers and skills, and they realized that theskills and careers that we used to have in the twentieth, maybe the earlytwenty first century. Where you know around fifty years, people got jobs outof university and they kept those jobs. They got pension and that was it now. The half life that is the. Howlong does your coureer value or skills decay to fifty percent of the vallues?That they initially had it's around five years, so we live in an age wheremost people graduating university. All my friends, graduating university thathave graduated are doing something completely different than they did fiveyears ago and that's the the stat that the world economic form came with,which is the idea that an average career now lasts five years, and youneed to almost learn you te skill in new skills, the the problems, notunemployment, but redeployment and your ability to not just to learnsomething at university and then stick to a job. I mean that won't get youvery far like you did, maybe in the seventies. Instead, now you have to beready to adapt, because in five years, most likely most definitely you'll haveto learn something either on top of those skills or something completelydifferent. It's it's scary, but also an opportunity for those who learnd theright tools to really excel in this new field. It's the idea of like I'mdoneschool. I've learned everything I need to know is dead. If you're not learningand relearning and exploring new things, you're going to be Irelevant, I fiveyears the journey's just beginning, I, the one thing that I really take tookaway from university is how to learn in a system how to beefficient in a system, but the actual topics that I learned in university. Idon't use them right now. Ninety percent of the topics that you learnyou don't use, but I really learned a valuable lesson of how to learn how towork within a system and that's really what you need to do, which sounds scary,because now you're thinking, there's no end insight. I have to constantly work,work and just put in time and grind and hopefully by the age of seventy I canretire, but that's actually not the case. Learning is is not a hard thing to do if you enjoywhat you're doing and the big thing after university is that you get topick the topics that you want to learn while you're interested in it's almostin a way as long as you're learning something you're fine and you don'thave to dedicate a full day for it as long as you're learning something alittle bit at a time each day, you're going to ssurpass more people thatgraduate and think that they can just coast cool. I want to get into some ofyour philosophies around learning, because you run ai've been beenteaching for many years, but you'v just run a phenomenal volume of students oryour program still like hundred and twenty thousand students have beentrained and learning how to coat through your programs. So, just likecrazy volume, do you have any like philosophies or pillars or frameworks or whatever inhow you think about going about teaching people how to learn new things.Yeah there's definitely a a framework...

...that I have the one thing that I wantto comment. What makes a good instructor 'cause you, you kind of askthat point and what has helped me breach such a large audience from somany different countries, obviously with different backgrounds andexperiences. I think it's this idea of being able to go back to the beginner mindset beingable to remember how it was like for you learning, because, as we get moreand more experience gets smarter and smarter, we almost lose touch with thatbeginner mindset and one of the things that has obviously helped me was thefact that I did spend so much time planning outhow I would teach myself. What are the key things to learn. I think for a aneducator for somebody, that's a teacher, the ability to relate and reallyunderstand the student and what the simple terms are that you need to useto explain something. Not only shows that you're, a good instructor that canrelate to students, but also shows your understanding, because if you canexplain it simply well, then you definitely know yourseff and it'sactually it's. It's called a fineman technique. After after Richard Finemana noble piece, price or notnoble piece prise nobl prize winning physicistbecause of his ability to explain concept, complex topics to his students,so let me ask on that. Then: Do you think the modern definition of whatmakes a good teacher is changing, because if I go like maybe historicallyor if I overgeneralize it's like someone who has been out there doing it for fifty yearsright, you've seen every angle. You've seen dozens of people be successful. Manymore fail. You've learned every lesson there is to learn, and then you knowwhat's next in my retirement, maybe now I'll go and teach it. Do you think that,like I'm over, you know overgeneralizing, but like do you needto be the best in the world in order to be a good teacher? No I've! Absolutely not! I do want topoint out that I don't want to be the typical millennium that comes in andsays. Oh, the old system of teaching is wrong and like abolish all universityand structures because they don't know what they're talking about they're,they all sell. That's not true. I think it really comes to the individualperson there's some excellent excellent teachers that I've been doing it forfifty years and there's also excellent excellent teachers that I've been doingfor one year whatever the subject matter is, I think the key here is as you progress through your career,and this is happening to me as well. Well, you become good, or you start toget positive reinforcement saying that hey students are enjoying my courses,their understanding things, and you almost become complacent. You almostbecome comfortable because you know there's nothing to work on you're, notreceiving any negative feedback. I think the concept of a good teacher ischanging in the sense that, because we're in such a connected world rightnow, you can get immediate feedback on your teaching style. In my case,everything is online. I know right away when a student doesn't like a course,because I know when they stop watching the videos. I know when they leave areview, and a good teacher, in my opinion, is somebody that takes thosenotes and constantly tries to improve and constantly tries to understand what they did wrong or what they can improveon, and I think the all sole of teaching, which is in aclassroom and in a physical classroom, face to face that works really reallywell, because, most of the times students can't leave.They can just walk out on you right and sometimes maybe you'll have a cohorde.That leaves, and you only see them for a semester. I think the definition of agood teacher is changing now where, because there's this online presence,because it's more than the classroom now you have to really a be good and engaging ou. So studentsdon't just leave, don't just end your video, so you're able to really connect withthe student, even though you might ha e not have that physical presence, butalso B, your abilid to now leverage that and get feedback from yourstudents and get more Dada, not ds, not to say that Datas everything, because Ithink that word is kind of overblown. But getting that feeback and using thatfeeback to constantly improve yourself because you're never going to be aperfect teacher. I think that's, that's really important, so constantimprovement in learning how to leverage both worlds 'cause. I agree, like Iteach primarily almost eslusibly in person, and there is a certain there'salways going to be people that love the band that are going to buy the tshirtright and teaching in person is kind of...

...like that. It's like you're, going tothe concert you get to see it in person, an there's, a interaction in the class.It's a it's a different environment than insome of my experiencs learning online same is like I'm not saying better orwork. Just think it's different, I think, there's probably a hybrid worldwhere they all work together, but there's actually probably some thingsthat are better served being exclusively online, some that arebetter serv being mostly in person. So I don't know what the future is goingto look like, but I see it blending more and more yeah. I mean it's. That'sthe thing. There's pros and cons in person, teaching and being a goodteacher there's some pros and Constutyo have that face to face connection thatyou just can't beat online, you know face to phase is really reallyimportant, but at the same time you might not have the number of students that you can impact.The the students that you have face to face usually tend to be less, which givesyou less feed backoand what you can improve on so yeah. I mean it's, I think, to be a good instructor in inthis modern age. You just need to not necessarily just online, but you justhave to be more in tune with with a never connected world, with studentsthat have more destructions distractions than ever are more likely to focus on differentthings during your classes. So you just need to almost be more engaging, thenperhaps in the past, to keep that attention. Yeah. Honestly I come fromthe music business, I think of it as being a performer like you thee.Actually, it helps to have an entertainment element. Absolutelyyou'ryou're competing for attention in a generation that's trained to checktheir phone. You know hundreds of times in a few hours, so it's almost changingto being a it's. My version of being a p closest all ever come to being anartist now to being a performer. So one of the things I know we're kind ofgoing on a tangent here, but I I just find this topic so fascinating becauseit is, it is an important topic, one of the things that I did before Ireleased my first course 'cause. I actually went around and thought backto my past to who were my favorite teachers. Why were they my favoriteteachers and I looked all the way back from kindergarten to when I got my yogacertificate to you dupe channels, and I was like what made me stick. What mademe stick around for this instructor? Why do I still remember that instructorand actually diagramed it out and wrote bullet points for each one of theseinstructors and looked at commonalities as well as exceptions, and that wasthat was an really interesting exercise for anybody that wants to teach honestyeven for learners. It's interesting to do that exercise to see exactly whatwhat type of learner you are that, when what kind of teacher you nee, but alsofor teachers that perhaps want to learn from other teachers, that's actually. Igoes perfectly in what we wanto talk about, because Um first step for you as if I want to be agood teacher, so learning how to be a teacher you're, not the first person toever want to be a teacher like you've got your own lived experiences aboutwhat a good teacher is, there's a learning, how to teach courses, I'msure online, there's books. So it's smart to as a first step to say andthat's my instinct. I've done a bunch of these strength assessments. Myinstinct is to always go to talk to other people or ask other people who'vebeen there before so before I do my own research. Let meactually start with who do I know who's been there before who do? I know who'sreally good, either the greatest that I know or potentially world class at this,and what can I learn from them? So that's t's, a good starting pointright and that's a thing right. We because we're in this ever connectedworld. We have the benefit that we didn't have. I mean you and I grew upwhen Internet even before the Internet. When we had to write our own bookreports actually have to read the book. We can't just go online and get thesummarenotes. You know I had to go to the library I think in an everconnected world. It's so important for us w. We almost get a cheat code whereyou wan to learn something well good. That barrier you don't have to go tothe library, there's so much content online that you can jump start whatever.That learning process is by learning from people that have done it before,because you don't have to reinvent t a wheel, learn from them, learn fromtheir mistakes and starv from maybe now were exactly where they're at, but atleast close to, where they're at because you're wasting your energyreinventing the wheel. If somebody O has already learned that lesson so LeAsk a question on this, because do you think that there's a risk of missingout on your own version of the learning, if you're only reading the notes youknow so like instead of saying? Okay, I want to be the best teacher in theworld option. A would be. Do my own research and buy the top three booksthat the exto recommend not how to be a...

...great teacher option B would be. I probably justgoogle, like the online shortened version of those notes, or I'm sure,there's like a UTU video of someone somarizing in three minutes or like ablog post, where it's like riry key learnings. So how do you know when to invest the two weeks in reading thefour hundred page book versus just get the three bullets? Out of the summaryRight, I mean there's that that's the biggest issue right now. It's almost ablessing and a curse. The fact that we have the interen and we have so muchknowledge and there's so much video content being uploaded to ud so muchblockpost being written on the Internet. You have paradox of choice. What do Ipick and honestly that that is one of thetoughest challenges and if you want to be a successful learner, so that is youwant to be a teacher? You want to be a salesman. You Wan Na do anything thatinvolves learning one of the important skills that you need to have. Is thisidea of selection of being able to pick and choose while you learn, because Iguarantee you whatever topic you want to choose nowadays it's impossible to go througheverything in your lifetime, really I'm making a bald statement, but there isjust so much information out there. So how do you pick that? How do you selectthat right material? I mean it's a tough one to answerbecause it really depends, but there are a few rules that you can follow.One, for example, you know it's: How hard was it to create that contentright? blockposter are great. It's a really great way to get thoughts outthere, but the time invested in writing a blockpost is usually a day, maybe ifit's a really good plock blockboast from a really good rider, maybe alittle bit more a book. On the other hand, that takes years of planning andgoing through the process of doing their research. So I like to look athow much time does this Berson spend on this topic? Maybe researching? Are theyan expert on the topic? What other things have they done, and you start tonotice the people who and I'm I'm kind of generalizing herewith the blockpost I even Vri blockpost, but I also know how easy they are towrite. So I look at how much of an expert is this person? What have theydone? That deserves my attention and from there decide what you want toinvest your time on and, as you start to read, O you start to discover, youwill find different things and you mention this as well. Obviously talkingto others. Do you know somebody that is w where you want to be. That has theskill that you want to acquire, maybe ask that maybe go to a meet up orconference. That has the people that you want to become and find out howthey got there, because, even though it might take a bit of time to plan outwhat you should focus on, it's going to save you a lot more time in the longrun than just watching a thousand outu videos on coating, because well youjust want to learn how to co Bu. You don't really have a a reason: Whilyou're, watching those ones yeah there's. I think it's Radalio in hisbook principals talks about a believability level. It's like is thisperson believable in that they actually have some demonstrated level ofexperience or proficiency or success in a certain thing. So before you readsomeone's blockpost on learning how to learn like how long have they writtenbooks? Are they actually experts in this before you just take their blogpost for the summery? Okay right, your own pillars, so you'd mention a fewthings that I thought were super interesting and how to make learningsort of a lifelong pursuit. So you had two pillars: First, one was everythingis a game. What do you mean by that yeah o the two pillars? Um? I think, inorder for us to learn or be excited about learning in this life long journey. That is learning andyou know your ability to learn throughall your life, I really believe,indicates the level of your success. I kind of I guess in my hea created these twopillars to emphasize the point, but also make it fun and almost tangible tothe person that to them learning seems like such amedoskill that they don't actually need to focus on. They just want to mayberead about it and forget about it. So the first one is everything is a gameand I like to think about about school. When I went to university western, youknow I had an absolutely amazing time,absolutely loved the school, but the way that I got really engaged with withstudying and succeeding for exams and learning was to ppretend like this is awhole system and a GAM. I was super excited by the idea of how can I lookat this system. Objectively, this whole idea of going to class of taking exampsof reading books and then doing ABC or...

...d multiple choice. How can I optimizeis? How can I play this game where I can be good at it, but also not alsoenjoy the process, so the idea is well what's something that I can do allmy friends are: Are Sleeping or not, sleeping and studying the night beforethe exam, maybe too nice before the exam pulling all miters. It's like whatcan I do where I don't do that, but I can almost use cheat coats to do justas well as them in the exams, sleep and night, but also study just as much asthem. So I started looking at this idea that if I going to work, if I go into a job,everything is a system, and this comes from my coating background, but everything is just blocks that arecommunicating with each other. And if you look at at these blocks of systems, then you start to notice some faults oryou start to notice some some things that you can. You can almost usecheacots on it and improve that system. So this idea, when I did my first ExamiWestern, I remember- I got ten percent, it was. It was terrible. It was sodisheartening. Ot could start not a go start to university career, but I wasso proud of the fact that on my last exam at university, I had studied justas much as as I did for that math class that I got ten percent in. I studied just as much as I did thereand I forgot the exact number, but you know it was over nighty and it was theamount of time that I spent was the same and to me that was me: learningthe game, learning the system and how to improve it, and you find in yourlearning journey like this game that you can play o. How can you level upyour skill I suck at something? But how can I improve it and you almost find find it comically fun? Then theidea of yousucking and t e, the goal being so far away, doesn't seem asdaunting it just. It just sounds like another challenge: Andother Rock, thatyou have to hop to get to the end, so everything in a game was one and thesecond was efficiency, trumps, grit, grit, being resilience and hard workand everything else. So you're are you saying hard work and Gret aren'timportant? I knew you wre going to ask that sodefinitely not great super superimportant, it's the idea ofpushing through being resilient, and you know really driving towards yourgoal. Super Super Important, but the key here is efficiency. Trump scrit. Ithink a lot of people, including myself, get overwhelmed because when they learna new skill when they go to class, let's say an Ivy business class. Theyknow that they're competing with other smart individuals that are going to putin the time that are going to grind throughout the night and day tobe the top performer and for some students, maybe that excites of them,but also it's intimidating, because, if you're the type of person that isn'twilling to put in eighty hours a week to work on something, you immediatelygive up right away because you're never going to be able to compete with thatperson. That's that's always working has cut out everything from their life,except for this one task and you're not willing to compromise on that. That'svery disheartening, but there's actually a bit of light at the end ofthe tunnel here, where just grinding and just working hard doesn'tnecessarily mean it's the best strategy. The efficiency is actually key, andthis goes back to my story of everything as a game right, there's,always efficient ways of doing things, there's always ways to learn a topic inan efficient way. What is the important parts that you should learn? First, tolike? I do with coding to get a job and get work experience. So there's thesmart way of learning things and then there's the shockgun approach of livesjust cram as much as possible into my brain and the good news for people thatmay not be the super tipepay personalities that want to work eightyhours a week is that all you need to do is figure out what this efficiency isand you'll be just as successful as somebody that uses the shockun approach.If not more give like what an example of that would be,maybe encoding you teach it like. What would an example of, I guess, the the grit example would be stay up, work, eighty hours or ahundred hours a week in learning how to code, but what's an example ofefficiency and learning how to Code Yeah. So that's actually a greatexample Um. Let's generalize it here for non tack,people in the in the tech world, especially now everything is changingconstantly if you stop learning for even a year, you're already behindtechnology right Nowis, moving at a such a fast space. So, no matter howmany years in the industry, you almost have to keep up with the new libraryespractices and tools that are coming out...

...so you're constantly swimming now. Thiscan get really really hard and difficult and really least toburn up, and this is not just coding- There's alwaysthings that probably in your profession career. You can constantly learn now,with with the technology side of things with coding, there's so much out therethat it's impossible to keep up with everything you have to be selectivetbeing in the tach industry forces you to be selective, at least if you wantto be successful. So one of the examples that I like to give is, I have a lot of students who what theydo. Is they read the first blockboast thatthey read that talks about something and they assume that this is what theyneed to learn and they try to learn this and then they read the nextblockpostat says you need to learn this. So they add this to the list andeventually they're just trying to learn everything, and in a month they justabsolutely quit. had. Actually, friends, who started to learn how to code theyeven went to bood cans where they paid ten thousand dollars and they stilldon't have a job because they just try to do everything and eventually burntout and decided that coding is not for them. Maybe it was for them, but theyjust took a strategy where the shock and approach where they tried to doeverything too much- and this is a this- is a lifetime journey and if you're, ifyou're doing a strategy that only lasts you for six months, because you'regoing to burn out well, I whoever's doing a more efficientselective approach is going to win out in the long run. So that's one of your.I don't know if it's principals or techniques, but the Carado principl esactually right, like don't try to do it all. Let's try tofirst figure out what are the twenty percent of the things that are going togive you, eighty percent of results and just filter everything to start atleast filter everything else out, and let's just focus on those twentypercent things. Don't let the list get too big exactly, and you know, Paridoprincipal is one of those things that has been discussed a lot and online nd.What a lot of people know about it, but for those that don't it's essentiallythis idea of the twenty and eighty percent, so the twenty percent usuallyaccounts for eighty percent of their results. So you can say twenty percentof my customers account for eighty percent of my revenue. So let's focuson the twenty percent and that can go into learning right. What is the twentypercent that is going to give me eighty percent of the result. One example thatI like to use is language learning yeah. If you wanted to learn, let's saySpanish and you know no Spanish- that's to learn Spanish befolent, an Spanishfrom zero to that mastery. That's a big, Jo! That's a far away goal that youcan't see, but you know what you can do you can google the a hundred most usedwords in Spanish and learn, learn those first, and that is the principal rightthere focusing on whats the key thing. If you learn the most commonly used tohunted words, I bet you you're going to do pretty well and you're, going tofeel pretty good about yourself just a couple of days in so focusing on thosekey things is important and the big thing with the prido principle is notnecessarily the addition of what should I add that it is the twentypercent. It's almost more of the elimination, you look at the wholefield, let's say coding, let's say language learning, let's say juggling,and you say: Let's remove the eighty percent that doesn't perhaps matter asmuch. What are the twenty percent that I should keep around, because it's soimportant that I need this, and that is this idea of Elumination, I think, issomething that we really need to do be in our day and age. Because, again it'sit's so easy to keep. Adding things. Keep learning things keep adtingblocposts keep adding boockmarks. I think elumination is one of thosethings that we often forget about y. If you were to let's go coding specifically, someoneknew to wants to learn how to code, what are the biggest call it, the mostcommon waste of time, like what a peoples, what's the biggest mistake orbiggest waste of time that people make when they're learning how to code t this? Is it just popped, my headright away, because I see it so much and it's one of those things where Itell people about it, but so many people don't listen to it andeven myself I was a fault od it when I started, and that is as soon as youhear somebody that is better than you say something or an opinion. You assumethat that's Gospel, that that is right and now you believe, what they believeand you start telling people those police. So, let's say coding, be likeyou think, oh react or jabascript is the best language. Oh somebody that,like maybe a senior D developer at your company, said that you're going to goaround to your friends D, be like...

Javascripts the best language andthere's a lot of that tribalism. That happens where the more advanced seniordevelopers can really influence the beginner, more junior, impressionabledevelopers and th. This is not just coting, it's very easy to do that. Ithink it's really really important, especially as a beginner, whether it'scoding, ord or anything in learning, to understand that most likely most thingsare never black and white. There's always pros and Constn, so learning thepros and cons instead of the black and white. This is right. This is wrong. Is One of the biggest things that youcan. You can change again, it's one of those things that I mention all thetime and it's still with my community. It's one of those things wheresometimes I have to be like a guy stop fighting it's! It's all pros and ConsRight, verses, Gospel, black or white. What are your favorite books orresources in learning? How to learn, or specifically, more broadly learning,not specifically learning how to Code, but what are your favorite resources orbooks for someone looking to teach themselves how to learn anythingbetter? So I definitely have a few books that have changed my myperspective, my career and just have had a really positive impact. On mylife, I like to divide them. I actually have the booklest in front of me. Ilike to divide them into the micro, which is the specific learningtechniques that can be applied pretty much today and an he mackro, which ismore courer ar oriented. How should you start structure your career andlearning throughout the rest of your life? So I'll start with the microfirst micro, the two books that I think arereally good to start off with just to get you excited about. The idea oflearning is moonwalking, with Enshein, with Joshua AFTAR and emergency byneils traus excellent books, both almost talking about the author and how theymastered a topic that they knew nothing about at the beginning of the Book VeryEntertaining Reeds. To really get you excited and then the other three that Ithink are really good, more esoteric, philosophical books on learning which,when I say that doesn't sound exciting, but they are quite good, is the art oflearning by Josh, Waiskin deeppork by Calnewport, and the for chef by tempersare excellent books that have had creat impact in my life, but the ones thathad ha've had the most impact are the macro, the more career, big picture ofvision. where I'd say three bucks one is sogood. They can't ignore you by CAL Niewport, one of my all time, favoritebooks, if you had one book to read right now, definitely read that H:smart cuts by Shen, Shane, snow and t en finally anti fragile by Nasim Talab.Those three books have really shaped my thinking and have helped me to navigatethe the jungles. That is the the work place,the careers into all the overwhelming decisions that you have to make in yourlife thos. First, two that you recommended the moon, walking withEinstein and, what's the other one emergency emergency, so those are moreI've read moon, walking with Einstein thought it was amazing and H. Maybe I get what you're saying it's notlike, not only if you want to learn how to train to have a better memory, butmore so just to get. You excited that about how the authors went about theirprocess of learning new things right, like the lesson in it, isn't learn howto memorize a deck of cards. The lesson of the book is like here's, a cool new,different approach to how the author is learing, something Newi and I thinkthat's that's the key thing and that's why those books are so great because learning isn't something reallyappealing when, when somebody tells you hey, I'm going to teach you how tolearn, you think to yourself I mean like I dothat at school as like textbooks and like o Hav to lock myself in thelibrary Wasn thes class eajeez right. So I think it's really really importantto get people excited, and this is why I I mentioned these two books, becausethey are super farm, wheats and they're going to get you excited because, as weget older, we tend to start stick to the things that we're good at you knowwhen you're a child you're trying a bunch of things and then slowly slowly,you have external factors. I tell you wow, Johnny's, really good at dancing,wow johnny's, a really good chess player, and you kind of tend to gotowards these things that you get positive feedback from and as we getolder, we're almost too self conscious to try absolutely new things that weare absolutely terrible at like starting from zero. Is such anintimidating thing when you're a forty year old man or woman with a child witha career, and you want to learn salsa dancing. I mean that is. That is tough,a lot tougher than if you were a...

...fourteen year old, and you know yourparents forced you to do some salsa dancing. So I think those two booksreally get you excited and make you realize again. Everything is a gamewhere these skills and learning is actually. If you started zero, noproblem, you can get there and most skills can be learned and you can do itin a fund way in a in a gamish way and those two books really do that. I thinkwe often forget play you know like we forget we get so take ourselves soseriously and we come out of school kindo burn and do something interesting,at least for me. I got lost and probably taking myself too seriouslyfor too long, I'm trying to unlearn a little bit of that and play a littlebit more so learning learning things that aren't always associated withexcelling in your career, becoming a better negotiator being better at saleslike there are some times things that youcan learn that are just for fun. That also help you be better in other areas,but not you're, not doing it. For that reason, io absolutel and I can lookback on every single skill that I've learned even juggling even or Gammy,where those were somehow useful, throughall my life in, like the mostunexpected, weird ways and you're right. I think we takes ourselves tooseriously. That's that's one thing that I I pride myself on is that I'm still achild on the inside and as a matter of fact, for anybody, that's listening andgraduating soon or about to leave university thinking that they're goingto go into the real world. Well, real world is full of children trapped inadults. Body like everybody, is a child just trying to look a lot moreimpressive than they are look like the half things figured out, but nobody hastheir things figured out, we're all just children. So having that mentality,almost loosene things up, I think the the famous thing is, if you're anervous public speaker, you know pretend like everybody's in underwor,it's Kindo like that you know everybody's, just a child, just half onwithin nothing's as serious as you think, and having that playfulcuriosity will lead to you. Tryi new things, learning new things Y, a cool. If you could rewind the tape, you'vehad a u'v done a whole bunch of different things. Taking a munch ofswings. Is there anything that you would do differently or any advice thatyou'd give to yourself? If you were twenty two again t's see that's a tough one, because Iive thought about this before Ia've journaled about it before, and theanswers always know because every single mistake is has led to somelearning, but I feel, like that's a copout answer that everybody gives. Soif I had to absolutely pick one 'cause you're forcing me to, I mean it sounds like I'm purposefullystaying on topic, but it's really this it's! The idea of. I wish I learnedearlier how to learn. I wish I knew the importance I I wish. I knewthat it was a learned skill, not that Oh, I'm just bad at readingtextbooks. Oh I'm just bad at focusing in lectures and is just an innate skillthat we have no. It was a learned skill that you can actually practice justlike basketball, just like swimming just like whatever it is. It's a skill that youcan practice and I wish I had started practicing this learning skill a lotearlier, because I would have been so muchfurther along it's one of those skills. Again, it's it's so madit, so you almost doesn't sound exciting, butthe little time that you invest in it is going to change the course of yourlife, so yeah I would have. I would have learned how to learn a lot soonerand who knows maybe I would have. I would have done a lot more with my life.I feel like you come out of university or any any schooling and you're justlike I've read so much. I've studied so much, I'm just ready to go do stuff.Now, I'm done with books for a while, and I was the same as you I feel likethere was a dark period there. I just didn't read for a long time and it'ssomething I wish I would have kept reading for different reasons, but Iwish I rint ave it up. Well, here's the good news for anybody. That's leavinguniversity you're going to be first time in your life, where you have allthis learning time open up where nobody's telling you what to learn,nobody's, saying: Hey, go to this glass at this time. You have the freedom tonot learn and just do whatever you want to do, but you also have the freedom tonow pick whatever topic you're interested in. So that's almost nice ina way where yeah you're, exhausted from learning and taking exams. I know I wasafter Western. I was just so sick and tired of writing essays and exams. Inever wanted to write an essay, my in my life. Luckily, I don't think I don'twrite essays anymore, which I'm extremely happy about, but it opened upall this free time to finally do the things that I'm interested in what werethe things that I was interested in. I...

...wanted to learn how to surf. I wantedto learn how to navigate with a mapping compass. Does that really make me a lotof money? Make me superrage super successful? No, but I was curious in itand somehow those skills translated to something in the future that actuallymad me productive in my career. So it almost is a free pass after graduationto learn whatever you want. Yeah. That's awesome! Well, man. I appreciateyou sitting down and taking a little bit of time to chat. This has been alot of fun and is there anything we can do to help you? Where do people findyou online a yeah for anybody? That's interestedin what I do, especially if you want to learn how to code the you can just H,tweed at me my name is Ontatr Andre Andrei and a my super complicated lastname: N E, a Goie. It's Iran, a coding school called Zrotmastry. You can gooleme and I'll teach you how to code and travel the world perfect, Thak you somuch better appreciate, tiking the time, thanks for how to Ain Bi you've been listening to theIvionchminor potcast to ensure that you never miss an episode subscribe to theshow in your favorite podcast player, or visit ivy dot ca forward, slashentrbrenership! Thank you! So much for listening until next time.

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