The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

23. Inclusion: How to go out of your way and move the dial in business and life with Jodi Kovitz, founder of #movethedial


Despite all the buzz about diversity and inclusion, few companies make it a true investment priority. We need to start bringing intention, rather than just good intentions to the process.


The fact that critical decisions are being made without the perspective of half of the population is particularly concerning in tech because of the ever-increasing role that machines in general and AI in particular play in our lives.


Jodi Kovitz, a lawyer, turned tech executive, founded #movethedial, an organization to advance the participation and leadership of women in tech. In this episode, we talk about her entrepreneurial upbringing, how she navigated her early career, and the nudge she finally received to start her own company, and global movement.


In the wake of COVID-19, Jodi made the difficult decision to pause operations at #movethedial. In doing so, the aim is to preserve the company and support the movement in the long term. We are all deeply optimistic that #movethedial 2.0 will emerge as a strong, and resilient organization.

You're listening to the IVYENTRERNORPDCAST from the Pierre L, Morrisa Institute, Foronto Preneurship at theipy business school in this series I te entrpreneur and IV Faculty member EricJanson will anchor the session Jodi Kobet. Thank you so much forcoming to hang out in' so excited to be here with you. I appreciate Youe makingthe time. I know you've got incredible demands on your time, but I reallyappreciate you making e trip in from Tronto think you joyfull and IV beingmy almamater. It's really actually very meaningful for me to be back and lovethe work that you're doing in love. What you're teaching your students sohappy to be part of awesome. So I think three big things I wanted to covertoday, but the first one is a little bit of your back story and then gettinginto how did you actually make the leap to start and move the dial? But if wego way way back, I wan to hear about handheld cards. Ok, I'm going to tellyou so handol cars was my first business and I started it when I wassixteen years old and the vision was to create beautiful art that would begreeting cards and I am passionate about art and I love to use my handsand I really wanted to come up with something that filled what I saw as aunique need at the time in the market to create something that was bespokeand I lived very close to a greeting card store and that's how the idea cameto me. So I was very lucky. My parents were very supportive of my curiositiesand my mother. You Know Shlet me down to the Japanese paper, store and tookme to all these wholesailors, so I could buy all the different pieces andbetween sixteen and when I started my undergraduate degree at Western and Iactually started at heron before I came to Ivy. You know I sold the store thatsold the cards around campus and I really did learn about how to build relationshipsfrom that card. Company and I'll. Come back to that. A little bit later, whenwe talk about talk about my approach to building relationships, but for me thesignificance of handheld cars aneven being here at ivy today. I believe thatthat entrepreneurial story of having a vision dreaming a little dream. It was a verysmall sort of very specific product that I created, but then actualizing itand being able to have speak to the experience of growing the company. Ihad people who worked for me and my residence. Even on the floor of my room.We had a little sort of assembly line and using sort of that story of growingthe revenue and building those clients and and those Rav revenues over time toget into Ivy, and that I think that the entrepreneurial spirit that I had iswhat enabled me to distinguish my application. So that was joyful. That'sawesome! That's great, and did your parents like? Where did it start? Didyour parents nudge you to try something out, or did you just on your own saythat hey like no I'm not going to Deliper S, yors catalogues, I'm goingto Tually do something on my own, like wh, who started this thing? Who nudgedcame from me to start something on my own and I also I did have a job. At thesame time, I started w working in retail, its boarding life, making fivedollars and fifteen cents an hour, and I'm really glad I had that experience.But I realized early on that. Autonomy was something that I valued, and so Ithink part of the impetus for creating my own company was, if I create my ownthing that I'm really passionate about. Maybe I can make money as opposed tohaving to like clock in and clock out and have a mister sub for lunch. EverySaturday when I have a fifteen minute lunch Brak, so I think that's where itcame from, but I think the even the fact that I would think about. It camevery much from how I was raised, and you know all my parents played a rolein that, but in particular you know my mom really encouraged. All of us, mysiblings and I, who, interestingly, are also all ivy grids. Wee all went to ivy,for our undergraduate degrees was to be curious and encouraged our curiosityand to pursue many different passions and enabled and supported that. So youknow. For example, I played several musical instruments and my sisterplayed hockey and my brother K also was into music. You know from music to toart, and you know all these different things that, and I think that mindsetof you can do anything. You put your mind to is part of what enabled me toeven have an entrepreneurial mindset. It the first place we're going deepwithin the first few minutes, but I have to ask t a question, so you have adaughter now I da I've got a few children as well. Are you intentional about trying to dothat with with her as well other things that you do her you're like? No, maybemaybe try this houth Ar e you trying to direct or how. How do you encourage her?It's a great, a great question and I'm very mindful actually and intentionalin my parenting, and you know whether that's because of how I was raised orsort of life circumstance of I had a moment when Liuy was really young andthat informed a lot of my journey where you know she was quite ill and I almostlost her, and so that really woke me up to being a very committed, anintentional parent, around sort of the... that I bring to her and what Irole model for her. So I feel they're grateful actually t a that happened,but because of that and sort of the intentionality, I bring to how I try toparent her. I spend a lot of time listening to her and when I hear a curiosity in her, Ireally do try very hard to lean into that curiosity and to show up andenable her to pursue it herself. However, I can Sol give an example. Sheloves to Cook She's, just always been interested in baking and she started towatch cooking. You know shows on Netflix and- and I said to her, wouldyou like to take a cooking lesson and, and she said yes, I would and as amatter of fact, you know. Last night I ate pat tie that she made. That waslike delicious, probably the best IPA I ave ever had but she's been havingprivate cooking lessons and it's not to say that. That's easy for me to dothey're expensive, but you know I'm choosing to allogate resources there toenable that her to develop that skillseck curiosity confidence, becausenot necessarily that Yheu'll open a restaurant as a Shama. Maybe she willbut watching her sort of be curious and interested and passionate andunderstand that if she invests time energy commitment and grit to it, shecan actually make a thing is really important to me and she plays. You knowmultiple instruments, Guitar Piano now trumpet and composing. My mom did thatshe really diversified the exposure that I had to different activities andI think that meaningfully impacted my my confidence in believing that I couldbuild a company, and so that is how I'm sort of enabling her entrepranaorialspirit and Interestd so too interesting things. I want to come back to thefirst one ble, my mine, that at some point my kids would be cooking for meis something to look forward to td if they're good at it and you get themlesson see we happy. Secondly, there's this phrase that comes to min m likepulling the thread, and it seems like you if you're listening, you can spotsomething early in them and say: Oh t seems like there's some interest inthat thing: let's pull the thread and support it and see if we can helpnurturit a little bit. So That's interesting, absolutely and- and youknow, understanding that, just because they're little humans doesn't mean thatthey don't have a very strong point of view of who they are another example.You know we ha. We just had our summit move the dial o the company. I now ownand found it which I get into later hosted a summit for Twenty Oi h hundredpeople this year. That was you know. Recently. Last year she spoke at our first summiton the stage about sick kids and her experience there, and this year shesaid mum can I speak and her choir was actually performing as part of the artsort of immersive experience and I hadn't planned on her speaking 'cause.I don't want to be you know, giving her too many opportunities and not forcingher. I never want to force her to do those things and I said w well you're,not on the agenda you're, going to sing with your question that I really wantto speak. It's really important to me, so I had a choice in that moment. Youknow sort of be firm on the programming and sort of you know not listen to heror listen to her curiosity and her interest to pursue public speaking to acrowd of three thousand people at age. Ten. She Welt Heron speech she talkedabout when she wrote the speech. You know incredibly inspiring things around.You know astrenaunts that recently took the first face, walk that we're womenand hoping that they don't. We don't talk about their gender anymore in thefuture and that she wanted to take over and move the DOSEC. That's the news tome, you know, but she was so confident andarticulate and memorized her speech and prepared for it, and that was as aresult of a listening to what she wanted to do, but be just the Osmosisof role modeling and what I'm doing, even though in moments where it'sdifficult and takes me away from her, which is as a parent, I'm sure you'vehad this moment as well, is sometimes difficult understanding the impact ofrole modeling for our kids and being true to who you are so that they can.You know, find bits of that that resonate for them a D and follow youknow, follow their own, their own path. So anyway, that's hy. I answer I'mparenting. I see, I see parallels between that and teaching. You knowlike I still new wish coming back to TEACHAR DIV, but I' definitely seeperalleze like I'll, see, you'll see threads. That you might be interestedin the student student says something about never thought about being anancrepreneur, but this class kind of you know opened my mind a little bitand you can either say interesting good for you, like that's great or like,let's sit down sometime, let's talk about like what do you mean what wasinteresting about it? What what could you do next? That might actually feelthat fire a little bit. So I think, there's interesting parallels betweenparenting and NTEACHIR ASER. So, despite the fact that you were Noerat,sixteen and you're not perent. Now there w there was a piece in the middle.Where you you didn't start your own thing rig o the school. So what did youdo after you graduated? I summered at the Boston, Consulting Group, and I didthe thing that many ivy students do is like. I chose a path. It was theconsulting path. I was superproud of myself that I got the job there Wesesix of us that got that semaroll think I was the only woman identified personand then, when I got there you know I hated it. Sorry, but that's true, andit was you know, the firm was amazing. It was an incredible opportunity to bethere great culture, but it was being... know in Thi, breadseet doing theanalysis, which was not what I call my superpower right. We all have thingsthat I think skills that we can develop. Certainly in my time at Ivy, Isharpened my analysis. You know modeling skills, which was never s sortof my strong point growing up, I wasn't sort F, never saw myself as very goodat math, and I you know sharpened. My saw enough to get the summer job andget through the case studies, but it really was hard for me, so it wasalmost like Um squishing, a square into a circle for me to do that, and I had.I was so fortunate that I had incredible mentor. Her name was MaryEllen Murray and she was a very strong inspiring human who in fact was goingthrough breast cancer treatment at the time and would come to work completelybald, not even wearing a wig and just proud of herself, and that was a reallyimportant role model experience for me to see what it was to sort of beconfident and she took an interest in me and she saw that during the day Iwas doing my job and at night I was doing my side Hussle, which is in factthe first social movement I built. While I was at Ivy, which we can talkabout later, but I built this investment challenge and she saw that Iwas so passionate about the entrepreneurial little venture, whichwas a nonprofit sort of social movement game that I was building for studentsverses, the actual work that I would have to do in order to be successful atBzg for many many years before, I would ever get to be doing selling oranything ontrepreneurial, and she took me out for lunch. I'll, never forget itto a restaurant called canoe that overlooked Torono and she looked at meand she said you need to follow your heart and you need to be. You knowlistening to where your passion lays- and I wish I had, and if I had donethat, then I may never have ended up with breast cancer. So I can't watchyou conform yourself just to do what you should do quote unquote, becauseyou're at Ivor, because you got the opportunity. I really encourage you tothink much more out of the box for yourself you, you really have anentrepreneural spard and you need to Nurch Nur nurture it. So I listen toher and I went to. I just met my lastsemester at Ivy and Milan on exchange at Beconi, which was a life highlight.I could talk about that forever, but that was just truly a life highlightfor me and I think, derive a lot of my ability to hustle and have myconfidence as an entrepreneur in my ability to figure out anything fromhaving lived in Milan. In fact, where you know English was not the firstlanguage which you wouldn't know if you haven't lived there and I had to learnItalian and figure it out, and that was a huge part of my life. But then youknow when I graduated from IV I came back and I got a job at workbrain andworkbrain. The CE O wis a guy named David Owsep, of course, ar you're quitefamiliar with him. Given that Jussen, your partner Um, you know, has workedthere and H S has really driven the company becoming what it is today withhim, and I was very fortunate to work with David. I learned a ton from himglobal mindset. How do Yo build a thing with a vision of excellence? How do you justgrit so much that, like your mindset is yes, we can always no matter what nomatter when it's hard and at the same time there was no women on the Lue ShipTeam that I admired or looked up to, and it wasn't avert in that moment thatI was leaving work brain because there was no women. I I didn't know that.Then twenty something years ago, but I did meet an awesome woman who I couldrelate to who had been introduced to for the purpose of a mentorshiprelationship. Her name was pat, is Patkreevsky she's, still a close mentortoday and we were supposed to have coffee for her to maybe give me someentering by the end. She was offering me a job and I had said yes on the spot.You know walking away from all my PREIPO equity. The time I didn't knowwas quite foolish, but you know I in my heart. I now know that it's because Ithink we all need role models that we can relate to and even though David andthe whole team at workbrain were incredible people to me and taught me alot and I still deeply cherish my relationship with David and others thatI worked with that work brain I needed to be learning from someone ultimatelythat I could see myself in so I worked at scociebank, then for a couple ofyears in succession planning for the C sweet team down to director. It was avery small job on a highly strategic team, so I actually was doing dataentry really Dada entry for all the succession plans and leadershipdevelopment plans, but I loved it 'cause, as we were talking just beforewe started the podcast. I am a voracious consumer of best best inclass leaders, perspectives, different leadership, competencies. I read allkinds of books on this and it was like doing a little. You Know Mba inleadership by working at Scocial Bank for those few years. I then decided to go to law schoolbecause I had always wanted to do further education, and I didn't reallyat that time see the m the necessity to come back, T ivy and do a one year mb.A A lot of my friends did, I'm sure I would have gotten a lot out of it, butI thought I could get a lot out of going to law, school and learning howto think critically and then I could...

...always hang a shingle as a lawyer, if Iever needed to my mother had been divorced when I was quite little and Ialways wanted to be able to be financially in apendent, so I went tolaw school, never thinking I would practice. I thought it was a goodbackup plan and then I'd go back to business and I you know, loved andexcelled in my business law course. You know, I remember I'll, never forget. Igot the prize in in Business Association like at the top place inthe class, and it was natural for me, therefore, to go back into business orgoing to business law, but I fell in love with family law. Don't ask me: I thought it was interesting untilactually the law was changing. I was fascinated by assisted reproduction andsort of the law that was changing in that area and also the entrepreneurialspirirt and me sort of thought. Well, if I'm going to practice and hang ashingle or like practicing a larger law firm, I can probably use my sellingability, in my entroprenarial spirit, to build a practice early. So that'swhat I chose to do. I could have been a corporate lawyer, but then I had theopportunity to become a family lawyer and I chose it and I actually wasextremely entrepreneurial. In my approach to the practice I had abusiness wlen, they laughed at me. The partners laughed at me I'll ever forgetthis initially at Torkin manes, when I, when I articled and worked there,because I went to ask for two thousand dollars to support my businessdevelopment plan and of course I wanted to take like we have never seen a firstyear associates eer audacity to do this, but we we can't say no. Several yearslater, I was setting my business around t plan around to all the partners andand sharing it, and you know some of them saying you know we're sorry, wedidn't believe in you, but they were very supportive and enabled me inparticularly the senior lawyer that took a bet on me. Is Names Laran,Wolfson I'll, be forever grateful to him for his mensorship and belief in me.You know he supported me building my own practice, but he also taught meabsolute excellence and communication and that skill that I spent six yearslearning how to draft he would he would take a red pen, seven times to adocument d literally cut it to shreds, but the fact that he took the time whenhe's a guy that builds fifteen hundred dollars an hour to teach me so that Iwould learn how to articulate a value prop in a concise way, so that I wouldunderstand how to sell at that time the judge or the client on what I wastrying to attain how to be thoughtful around composing. You know an anargument which you know now that I spent a lot of my time selling a vision.You know it's been extremely helpful, so I did that for six years whathappened was, and I did bl quite an acuetive practice. What happened,though, as my daughter got extremely sick. I spent two years in and out ofSI kids with her. I realized in one of those moments that I I actually hadlost myself. While I was becoming a lawyer, so I hadalways done community work. I had always worked out my entire life. Itwas very important to me. Physical fitness, develop personal development,friends, family and all of a sudden, I was just a lawyer and a mom who would run home. Put mykid to bed run back to the office work till two in the morning like I, itreally was a bit of a mess and in that moment, with Lily, you know hadthis big wake up call where I was like. Oh, I could lose the only thing thatmatters to me. I do not like Howe'm showing up in theworld and not you know. My exhusband is a wonderful human and he's a wonderfulfather and the relationship wasn't the right relationship notice that had tochange and all the things at the same time, and so that moment is sort ofwhat I would call the a precursor to building a life of passion and purposethat I'm currently living well, there's a there's a lot of fill in the blankright like from Um from graduation too and like knowing that you wereoncreprenerial to finally making the full committed leap, and I I feelhaving read your book and knowing about the story, I think actually making thatfull committed leap is part of what has made move the dial so successful today.But it took you all of those lived experiences to get to the point whereyou were like. Yes, I'm going to fully commit and jump and move the Dil fullya hundred percent D, and you know it was stitched together over many yearsof those lived experiences. Once I decided to leave the practice oflaw. I realized I needed to transition, and this is you know I. I share thisfrom the perspective that, if somebody's listening that wants toleave a discipline and move to another discipline, what I learned is you don'thave to put so much pressure on yourself to make the the perfect move.Initially, I went to Oser for five years that were great gift to me, giftin the relationship's gift. In what I learned- and there was an end to what Ilearned and experienced there, even though I knew that doing strategicbusiness development at a law, firm, wasn't necessarily my career, but itwas a really important transition for me and a really important. You know onthe job education experience, without...

...which I don't think I would be where Iam bu T. Sometimes, when I'm coaching people and I'm sure you've had thisexperience too people put so much pressure on themselves if they want toleave a particular discipline like eye banking or consulting or you knowwhatever it is law to get the next move correct, it's actually it's not alineer journey, and so when I was at o Waslearn, I did do stroteatic businessdevelpment for five years and I moved up and you know they recognized mypotential and and kept you know investing in me and supporting me. Itook an IVY executive course. Actually that transformed my life with a teachernamed Dennis Shackel, and he really saw me Ndso. This comes to the next point. Youare asking me around how you you know, make that full go all in R, that fullleap having people that see you and help you see yourself and believe inyourself along the way, is absolutely critical and at each moment where I'veleaned into the pursuit of the next goal, it's always been as a result ofsomebody seeing me, I mean even Callin worehead, who saw me at osther and saidto me. Never Forget it, she very early in our time toll Ha. You work like ahorse and I believe in you and I will invest in you and I and she did. Shewas hard on me in the most positive way and she pushed me pushed me Pushd mebeyond my comfort zone and then, when I met Dennis, and he saw me- and you knowhe- he invited us to do a speech in that course that he taught persuasionand influence. It literally was life changing for anybody. Listening TakeDennis's class. If he can- and he said you know, you've got to dospeech and it should be like. I have a dream like that big, and that is when Iwrote my speech Dreamit Planet Gogettet, which is a chapter in my book ind,which I'll talk about you know when I have the opportunity to talk to anyonewho will listen about my story and the Mind said of you know anything that youcan dream you can do and I gave examples and they'll never forget. Youknow the class gave me a stanning ovation when I did that talk, and itwas in that moment that I realized wow. I want to have this impetuan people, Iwant to speak. I want to share my vision and I want to build somethingand I wrote it on a cue card. He made us do that and influenced by him andinspired by him and giving myself the opportunity to invest in myself. Forthose three days became the beginning of the journey that is now moved, thedial and and how it's manifested in my ethos, which is my book and all the allthe things that were building so wasn't I'm going off script but co, Wat man. I had what made him. You said that he saw you. So what didhe do? What how did he make? You feel what did he say when you say that hesaw you so the first thing is that he made us dothe disc analysis before we arrived, and I remember being so annoyed that hewas making hast to do that, because I was busy and it was like thelas An werbefore do one whati know, although I'm kind of Nary like that- and I typicallydo do homeworki'e started that Ingra ten very nerty that way, but anyway, I Idid it and when I walked in I'll, never forget. I was late because I had a veryimportant presentation that I had been scheduled to deliver that morning ofthe first day and I just couldn't miss it and I had let him known evance. Iwould be late, so the class was going and I came in an hour late and he madea whol Piel about me when I got in this is Jodi. I think I was an eye and I waslike the only I think it was an Ey. I have to check just to be fair, exactlywhat it was, but whatever the mix of traits he was like. I never see this.This is Jodie. She has these traits welcome Jodie she's, going to give usso much by being here, and I was kind of embarrassed that he was doing that aat first but, as the course went on, I actually saw that he he he got to knoweach of the students and what their unique strengths were, and he wouldinvite each of us to participate very uniquely in a way that would be in ourown superpower and in our own comforts one, because he had done thepersonality test and had spent the time preparing and caring enough about eachof US- and you know he called me out to give me opportunities. He you knowreally pushed and inspired me when he saw that I was really enjoying theexercise around the speech, and then I did it in my small group and he hadobserved it and then he encouraged me to do it in the big group, and you knowI just I just felt like he really saw my potential and he said it to me andhe signed the book that he gave me with a special message. Carpe N- and I think he just I don't know whatit was in him, but he saw something in me that I couldn't even yet see insidemyself and interestingly one of the people that I met in that courusChrislyoung. You know we had a very special connection with very differenthumans, he's a very analytical, thoughtful, methodical gentle leader,and he kept leading the group through all the exercises and his team wouldalways win 'cause. He would lead from the side in the back and and now wework together, he's with he works that move the dial and he's on my leadership,team and and We'e recently reached out... dentist to come. Do a leadership awhole team day for my team, basically persuasion and influence for move thedial, because he's had such a huge impact on my life and on Christ's lifeand really changed the trajectory of my life. That's awesome! I wanted to gointo that because I think well come back to things like that. Just readingyour book, I want to get your perspective on. You know how how we cando better or be better at moving the dial, but part of what I gathered waslike you know it's not it's not an ambiguous movement. That's suddenlygoingto happen, it's individuals helping individuals, so I want to callthat out because it sounds like that's what Denisit for unison early totallyYeah Net, so let's get actually into so. You made the leap in your own words.What is move that ile? What are you up to so move? The dial is a globalmovement and organization working to advance the participation andleadership of all women in tech people often say you know why why tech there's?So you know so many different industries that still really need ourhelp, and for me it was very natural having started in my career intechtwenty years ago and sort of seeing that then and then I came back to tecktwenty years later. So I was at Osler for five years and then I got the phonecall to become to apply for a role as the CO of a non profit in the textbasecalled. It was then called aeteconterro now called peer scale. Sort of like ypO for Texeoser listeners will probably be more familiar with Y po. It'sbasically a peer o Pere Networking Group for CE OS of software, as HaService, businesses and heads of their functions, and I walked back into theroom. You know walk into the room for the first time to share my vision withO hundred and thirty Leders, and they were all men except for four, and I wasoverwhelmed because I was surprised by this lack of diversity, and so for me.The reason why we need to deal with and work together to actively close thegender gap and the industry is because everything is teck, even here at I veeverything that you do is technology and able today, so whether you'redelivering education services, financial services, calling a taxigetting your food delivered. Everything is techanapled and if we don't have allof the humans, including women, identified folks and all the differenttypes of women with different lived experiences at our design, leadershipand governance tables, we will end up with building solutions that don'treflect the actual needs of the population. So for me, that's the whyI'm really past you know, in my own mind my rason detra, being equalitylike for me that table stakes we're heading into twenty twenty. All humansshould have equal human rights period, fulsed op, but that is not enough. Noris it that it's better for business and we' get better results by having womenat our Boardo l we're clear on that. I think we've been talking about that forthe last twenty years. For me, it is. This is urgent because we are currentlybuilding technology products. We are building autonomous vehicles withoutall the perspectives at the design table, which means we will not valueOul lives the same when we build algorithms that teach those cars how tomake decisions over this life or that life, which means that Ou know we're building solutions thatdon't factor in the different ways that different kinds of humans need to beserved. So that's my why- and it was just such a massive gender gap when Igot back- and I saw it in my new role and then kept seeing it that I gotinspired to create you know initially just a first event. It was really justlet's have a conversation, but in a really positive way, which is my Etho.So that's ast show awesome women that happened to be leaders and sort of putthis on the table, and that was in twenty seventeen and that little eventyou know given where we were at as a society and the hunger for it in themarket. At that point has now turned into global movement. We've touchedover fifty thousand people in the last two years. I have a team of twenty twostaff. It's my full time. GIG, you know d there we are that's yeah, it's beenamazing to see it grow from the sideline, so Congratto th. I know it'searly in the journey, still just getting started just getting started.So I hear you- and I was one of the leaders in a technology company thatprobably unknowingly until someone called it out, realizethat I didn't have a diverse team, so you know I'm competing for talent in areally competitive market. I need to hire quickly. I have an ALD C say Ihave an all guy team today. Where do people even start? You know I.I can't afford a chief diversity officer. I know this is important, butwhere do I start so I think for me it really starts with mindset. You have to step into the mindset of itreally matters to ensure that we have diversity oflived experience and perspective and thought on our team because we'regoingto do a better job and have a better...

...product as a result, even even on, evenand especially on a sales team, particularly as you know, buildingteams that reflect the population becomes increasingly important to yourclients, if you're outselling, with an all male all white sales team, whenthat is not reflect the reality of your clients, that is not going to Boe wellin terms of your opportunity. So for me it starts with mindset and making thedecision that we are going to be intentional. Not just have goodintentions, and so what that means is, if you, as as a leader of a sales team,you don't know how to run a sal. You know a recruiting effort that will aattract different types of candidates B will be intentional understanding, allsorts of issues from how the job description is written to who is on the panels whether we havebeen bias trained in terms of preparing for interviews and how to approachinterviews. And what is the process? Where are you looking for yourcandidates and even if you're, using a recruiter? Is that recruiter? Byextension of you, you know being extremely intentional and thoughtfularound bringing in all sorts of candidates? And you know I reallyunderstand the lived experiet thatv lived, it the need to hire fast and how that,especially in a scaling technology company, can really feel like it needsto trump hiring thoughtfully early enough in the game, because thechallengeis not being intentional, begets a problem that then, if you endup with an extremely monogamous group, it's very hard to entice or attractanyone who wants to be part of that group. As an only- and I I certainly asa white person of many privileges- don't understand that exlivedexperience. But I have you know, and I have done a lot of listening so that Ican start to understand from others who are teaching me that when a team looksall the same, it's very hard for somebody who looks different or has adifferent lived experience to want to join the team, because they're not sureif they'll be valued on the team or fiel that they belong. So you knowthere is a very comprehensive list of tactics that any leader who's lookingto intentionally mindfully build a much more diverse team can use, but I wouldsuggest that it really starts with mineset understanding what you don'tknow, as I did very early on in my process. I really did not know how todo this. I'm still learning I always will be, and you know the best thingyou can do is work with an expert who does know how to do it to help youdevelop a thoughtful strategy. Invest in that strategy. Make sure that you,you know, step by step, implement the changes that you need to in order toultimately procure a much more inclusive, hiring process that willresult in a much more robust team that reflects the population. You go througha great example in your book that I just wanted to call up, because I thinkI was guilty of I put on a job application and I wouldwant to attract female candidates, but I didn't think about how I was writingHa job application, and so I'd say well, look at my candidate pool like how canI I've on I've got a hundred applagainst. Two of them are female. Ofcourse, I'm going to interview them both but like they're just not applying, and I thinkyou you calling calling it out in the book. I actually this morning ranthrough one of the old job applications that I or job descriptions that I wroteup and ran it through one of the tools available online and it you know thebolded headline rate at the top heavily masculine you ow E, was using St e H. Iwas using all of the terms that the articles call out, so that's one toolthat I found, I didn't even know, existed it's a great one. Are thereother mindset being one of the things folks on the next one? You said thereare a few tools or resources. So what are the few that you mean? I I justwould encourage people to to sort of understand. There is a ton of software.There are different organizations that are out there that can help. You runyour job descriptions through that can help you get your biases out of yourhiring process and you know, typically, I don't love to like single out anyparticular technology, but the type of technology that we're looking for istechnology that takes the buys out of the job descriptions and- and I wouldstrongly ncoe I an it's something that I do and I invest in, and I did it evenvery early on in our life cycle as a company, as I hired somebody to coachme on how to get this right. That knows what they're doing and we work withanorganization that does inclusive design feminuity. All the time for everythingthat we do from hiring to our bias, training to our event, production, tomake sore to a designing ARP parental policy, which is a six month paid leaveyou want to attract. You know women! Think of strategies like that. How canyou act you K ow? Do you have a chest, feeding room available that has afridge in a private area to chest feed... that when people come back, you knowall these kinds of it is weaving together a thoughtful strategy with allthe pieces. It is not simply h changing only your job descriptions and it mightrequire in some cases, waiting waiting like I had to wait to hire. One of myroles I in the end ended up using someone on a consulting basis, harderto do wirh t a sales team, but you know- and you can't do it- for every wole,but really giving yourself the time and pushing on the recruiters to go backand and actually another. Another tactic that I learned through my myprocess of being educated was you have to actively reach out too and buildtrust with communities that you may not be used to hiring from if you want toactually attract people from those communities, so posting, for example,on the black executive networks, jobboard actively verses, just puttingit on Linkdon, because why would somebody who's a member of the blackprofessionals network? Think you actually want to hire a person of colorunless you are actively reaching out and demonstrating your interest andcommitment and a willingness to take the time to you know, interview andmeet those folks. So I think what I've learned is it's not an easy solution,it's extremely nuanced and being going into the mindset than means committingto investing time, energy money resource to really thoughtfully designthe hiring process from job description, all the way to interview lates andpanels, to perhaps the no amount of time and where you post the jobs andwhich Recu to you use to get you to the result that you would be looking forand then by the way, really being committed. If you, if youhave a largelyhomo homogeneous team, and then you bring someone on to theteam that looks different or has a different lived experience, it willeven then take quite a bit of time to build trust with that human and havethat person then become sort of a champion and an ally to other peoplewho might bring additional diverse perspective because they actuallybelieve you that that they want they are wanted on the team. That is aprocess that takes a lot of time and is not something that I ha've seen talkedabout as much as it should be and what it takes to to really build authentictrust. So who's doing, we don't have to call up se F, he company, if you don'twant to, but I'd, love to know what is what does great look like like what isa really good, diversn inclusion strategy tactics if you want to calltit Pecivi examples great, but on Gery look like you know for me, and I talkabout it quite a lot. I see sales for as as an North Star. I think, in thereason why I say that, and certainly you know, there's lots of partners thatwe work with at move the dial who, I think, are getting doing a really goodjob of this as well, who have extremely diverse teams meaningfully. You know iniincreasing the relevance of their product, but I'll talk about sales forus, because I think for me what they did is set a very bold vision quitesome time ago, now around what equality means and they equality as a core ofvalue, but also putting their money where their mouths ares o Mork Bennyoff the CEO. You know it was brought to his attention several a a number ofyears ago that there was a pay equity problem, and you know he didn't want tobelieve it. Of course, who would he's a very purpose driven person, but when hewent into it and he dug through the the different gos and the different worlddescriptions he saw it and they he you know, toned from the top made acommitment to invest in fixing it not like over ten years, not itterust idn't,like a little annual report. He was like no we're fixing this now and itcosts millions of dollars and then he's righted the ship many times 'cause.It's not like a one hit wonders he fixed it by just like bumping thesalaries, Zo wow right away, hery million oeras, yeah, oernight and andgot it done, and then he's had to do it a couple of times ecause every timethey have an acquisition or you know time the creep it creeps back in. Sofor me, you know, and they do a lot of other incredible work and they have avery fulsome equality team led by Tony Prophet, who, I believe, really walksthe walk. It's a newaunt strategy. There's lotsof pieces to it. But for me I I use that example as an earth star, becauseit really was about a selfawareness that there was a problem, a willingnessto fix it and what I call you know going all in and all in doesn't meanjast. We talk about it and we have some good intentions, but we're not preparedto invest in it all in means we fix it. We invest, we measure, we fix it again.We spend money. This is important as a strategic business priority and as acore value to us as a business. So you know another example. When you look atyou know the different organizations that we work with who are investing inthis work, and even particularly those who know they don't have it right andthey're, not at the end of what perfect looks like, but they say like we are inwith you. We want to learn together with the community. We want to fuelthis work. It's really important know td's great example, th y. They believedin our vision they invested in it tremendously to make it happen, andit's not to say that they think that...

...they're, even at the end of what youknow great looks like, but they are really working hard at it and and goingall in with humans and dollars and measurement and and reflection to workvery hard to get it right, and you can see it now in their technologyorganization, how much more the women identified people feel they belong,feel that they're valued and want to stay and and grow at the bank. It'sit's really interesting to observe that it's interesting to see big companieslike that kind of bring you along for their journey, so I was just on theCIBC website and saw some of the work that the commitment that Victor Dodigmade really early on in his tenyears CEO and a stat that I I found they'vedone a ton of work. I amusing work, but what I found was really interesting wasthey have ninety two percent of our staff believe that we have an inclusiveculture and I thought it's interesting because you'd want like you'd, want topublish stat that was like across the board. Everybody believes that we haveit, but I think by showing that I mean eight percent of a company. That'sreally big is a lot of people that actually still don't believe it, butthen publicly putting that out there that, like we're not there yet, buthere's where we're at is really cool Y. I love that. I think the transparencyis critical and I think they're another great example. I mean victor. I talkedabout him in the book as well as a leader that I deeply admire, becausevictor really made a very meaningful commitment. Not only you know, I mean Ithink now: They've evolved their inclusion strategy to really be veryfulesome, and I think that's part of the journey of humans and companies isthat we always evolve our strategies, but a few years ago you know whengender diversity was as a focus still really requiring. You know extremeattention, I mean it still. Does it probably will for a long time, butvictor really went all in on that, and he you know, by his involvement withcatalysts and on the board and other organizations and being such a strongmale champion and ally of gender diversity. I really think move the dollin corporate Canada actually, by way of example, and for me that was incrediblyinspiring and CIB C was one of, if not the first organization who believed inmy work, who funded it. You know they just nominated me for the wxn award.Theye brought me with my family to the like. They really mean it when they sayit, and I think that comes from his ethos, as well as the team around andbeside him. That really have manifested that there as well- and you know Ithink, there's others- you look at BEMO. You know they're investing threebillion dollars in women ontropreneurs like that is a massive statement.Similarly, and one of the things I deeply admire about how they thinkabout it on all these financial organizations is that they're workingtogether as an ecosystem? I think that's a really critical point. Is thato sort of say how do we get this right? This is for all of us, because in orderto actually build a more you know, incl, equitable and inclusive future,specifically in innovation and technology space. It really does takeall of us and those organizations that recognize it's less about ourindividual brands or individual talent, strategies which are important or inbottom lines. It is also about society and what we all have th the power to dowhen we all work together. I want to switch gears from corporateto let's call it education, an schools, so is there anything? Have you done anywork with or noticed anything that you think schools could be doing better onthe DNI front? So when, when you ask that question, which is a reallyfantastic question, what immediately comes to mind for me is how importantit is to inspire curiosity in a very democ democratized way, starting whenour kids are very young, and I think one of the things that's happeningright now is that our public education system and our private education systemare so disperate and the the experience and exposure that kids are having tostem and entrepreneurial sort of skills and mindset are so disperate that we're not doingour youth and our future leaders a service. So for me you know, I think weshould have a massive opportunity to really start when we think at how our schools are funded and what ourapproach is to ensuring tha young children and as they're, going outthrough the school system, have access to not only stand programming andlearning how to code, but also being taught the skills that we require forour future. That is really about being able to have curiosity, solve theworld's big problems and be able to sort of become. You know have anentropreneural spirit, if not breed only entrepreneus, and I I you know forme- that is the the something that I'm thinking deeply about and and what movetha o will be working towards in twenty twenty delivering programming that willaugment and enable much more democratized access to that sort of ral,modeling and and exposure. I think about I mean a lot of the things thatyou talk about. FORTAC are also applicable or could be appocable toschools. Think about the way that you attract candidates, profile candidates,interview candidates, the way that you...

...reward incentivize or call out and callin behaviors that are acceptable or not in programs. Absolutely I mean I don'tknow enough about sort of the current admissions process, for example at IVto even know how you approach it and I'm sure there's been a ton of thoughtand care given to it. I definitely think you know all of us,as schools can be on that journey, to learn how to we bring people in toenable true diversity of thought in our classrooms as much as we wentet ourcompanies. So I wanta your book, I devoured it.You can see all the dog eared pages and notes and scribbles. I thought it wasgreat. Is it is it available? So it will be soon. You can sign up on mywebsite jodikovas com to be notified right when it's out and if you want totag, move the dial and follow Jodi Cophetts on Instagram I'll, be I'll, behappy to be giving the t three people that do that a copy of the book. So wecan go ahead and and follow us and- and let us know, go out F with Hashi go outof your way and there'll be three winners that I will send the book to ina little give away, but it is currently in production for a mass market andwill be out soon great. I think we will be better off to get it out there farand wide. So that's great a few things that came out of it for me, so one Iwant to say there was a particular part where that talks about sort of meetingpeople where they are, and sometimes I think we can be- I'm not going togeneralize it me, I can be afraid I'll, be afraid to say something or speak upabout something for fear of saying the wrong thing and I think Yor, one ofyour Colos in the book was to meet people where they are and not ot, besuper judgmental or come down too hard. If someone says the wrong thing, Ithought that was really interesting. Thank you. I I have to give credit tomany pioneers in th in this diversity and inclusion in equity space. There'sa many people who came away before me who talk about this philosophy ofcalling in merces calling out. I really believe in that philosophy, so creditto those that have been doing that work for quite some time, and I reallyaffirmed that approach and my ony lived experience is that that approach cun beso much more effective, an enabling us all to feel like. We can be part ofsolving the problem if we, if we you know, are too quick to judge attack,shame it's very easy to lose people, and noteverybody agrees with this and I'm very respectful that there is a reallyimportant role for calling people out and I particularly for Hute people whohave been you know at this work for a very long time and or have experiencedsignificant amounts of discrimination over the course of their lives. They,those humans might feel very differently given their own journeys,and I deeply respect that and learning to understand it. I've just noticed interms of my own approach to building a movement where we really need allpeople, even if they're, not as far along on the inclusion journey, as Imight be now. After doing this, for a few work- and others might be ahead ofme- who' been at this a long time and or might have PhDs in this work,there's still a place for people who are interested and curious aboutlearning, and I invite all of those people to to cut me in and to join usand meet meet them where they are to the best of our ability. That's Grad,so last one before we wrap up here so you've been at move the DOL for howlong? Now, since you start, let's Credi a while before you formally started it,but l, I actually made the leap: Do a full time, how many Yearis January,twenty eighteen, so aboutnineteen minths or three minths yeah. So twentyfive, your ine minutes almost two years, seethe toyers? How has your thinkingchanged over h, the last two years from where you were at two years ago towhere you're at today, if tall wow? So many parts of my thinking have changedin what area in terms of sort of as an ourpreneur or like in myoverall inclusion work or let's go full circle back to an entrepreneur? Okay,so you know now that I've sort of started to build a thing that I had avision around. I have such a deep appreciation for andrespect even deeper. I mean it always did in my head, but it wasn't sort of.I couldn't feel it in my body before I had done it for entrepreneurs that havebuilt things. Small things big things, but particularly those who have builtreally big things when your goal is to build a really big global thing, andthen you look at people who have done it. It is not for the faint of heart and it requires an immense amount of focus, grit momentum, positivity, wells and wellsand wells of courage, and it's really the hardest thing. I've ever done in mylife. So when I look at you know, I saw that you have shoodog on your bookshelf.Like I love that book, I admire so much what you know. People who have builtcompanies, those big as Nike or you look at Disney and what that is as abrand. You know or spinmaster I was you...

...know, fortunate to to Houst and event.It's been master a few weeks ago and you look at Earth Budy coming out ofIvy to you, know, multibillion dollar global company. I have such a deepappreciation and respect for entrepreneurs, but I also know that youknow it is possible if you are fueled bypassion, if you are building a thing, not just because there's a marketopportunity 'cause for me, that is one of the greatest lessons I've learned.If move, the dial was just there's a need and an opportunity in the marketto build global movement around tech, because we need that we would never bewhere we are today. You have to really care about what you are building,because it's just too hard not to you know, so it has taken being fueled bypassion. It has taken really, you know, being able to translate the dream to anvery executable plan. That is just a bit further than attainable. You knownot audacious enough to reach for it, but also it takes dogged execution andthat that is extremely difficult but attainable that is sort of what I havelearned sort of reflecting two years in I never you know I could never have imagined building athing. That's gotten this big this fast. At the same time, you know we did it. Idid it and the team around me. You know that's the last piece I will say yourteam is everything this wouldnot. None of this would exist without the peoplethat have believed in me and the vision, and mostly the team, that's on theground behind the scenes that don't get the glory of celebrating. You know howimpressive it is that we've done this. It's really been because of them andbecause of an intense focus on the leadership ofthem. That has enabled this t to happen. Yeah well as someone who has beenpartial, not as big as these globial organizations, but if someone whosknows what it is to build a company you're doing amazing work N, it'samazing to see the work, th, F, R, eighteen mo like that's, not a long.You ow two years is not a long time to come as far as you have so to caccomplish everything that you and your team have in such frankly. A short timeis is amazing. It's very admirable, youdot an awesome job. Thank you, N. Iappreciate. Is there anything? We've got a big listenership now, so a lot ofpeople are listening on these pockesses or anything that this, the IV communityor the listeners can do for move the dollar for you well. Thank you. Iappreciate that question on that, so thoughtful, we'll join us. I mean firstof all sign up a MOVAA tcom to be part of the movement we have tons ofexciting programming coming out. We do lots of highly crated events fromsomething we calle dial moving dinners where we gather people to really helpthem around the spirit of generosity. To help one another, we do very largescale events that people can sponsor attend participate. As speakers, wehave tons of esteem speakers in the Ivy Community. So if you have a great storyto share, we have a stories platform, that's global storytellings, so itdoesn't matter where you are in the world. We sure be back in Japan andLondon this year and across the. U S share. You know reach out to me just Mto remove the DIL DOTCOM and you can connect with us in order to to join us,and I just really encourage you outside af moved the dial itself as anorganization and of course we we welcome sponsorship and communitymembers, but outside of mthatout itself. My key message is: We all have a roleto play in order to ensure that the future reflects the population and itreally does come down to very tiny actions that each of us can do so. AskYourself, if you're listening today the question of what can I do tomorrow andor once a week to move the dial for someone else and what that means is toliterally go out of my way to create a small opportunityo. Invite someone to ameeting offer someone some advice in coaching create an email introductionthat might be transformative for that person use a little relationshipcapital. Sometimes it's two minutes, but it's that choice to act, becausethe Dow doesn't just move awesome. Well, I appreciute you coming in and makingthe time and thank you for spending a little bit of time and sharing some ofwhat Youe em ith us. We persude my pleasure thanks for having me you'vebeen listening to the Iviongminor potcast to ensure that you never missan episode subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visitIV dot ca forward, slash entrcrenorship! Thank you! So much for listening untilnext time.

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