The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

3. Why Public Speaking Training Can Transform Your Life and Business w/ Eric Silverberg and Eli Gladstone

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Everyone wants to be a better speaker. Whether you’re pitching to potential investors or doing an all-hands meeting for your team, there are techniques that can help transform how you communicate.

On this episode, we speak with Eric Silverberg and Eli Gladstone, co-founders of Speaker Labs which trains you based on the science of effective speaking.

In those cases, what you sometimes do,as you change lives, you don't make someone a better public speaker. Youcompletely change their relationship with their fears, ind their owninternal psychology and that's pretty cool you're. Listening to the Ivyentrernorpodcast from the Pierre L, Morriset Institute, Farante Preneurship at theIvy Business School. In this series I beentepreneur an Ivy Faculty member.Eric Janson will anchor the session if you're, making a one to one salespitch a ane to few investor presentation or a one Te Miniquinoyou'll get a ton of value from this episode. In short, being a great publicspeaker will change your life after working with dozens of world classCOMPANIS speaker, labs founders, Eric Silverberg and ELA ladstone explain howthey create awesome public speaers. In this episode we cover how to overcomepublic speaking fears hod to pitch an idea using their hips and a whole bunchof ams model. How to make any topic interesting helpful if you're runningyour next company all hands and last, but at least how to design awesomeslides, please Kno more boring presentations. This is one of the mostimportant skills that any elce preneur can have and we're about to give it allto you and his potguast Eric Silberg e lied, Gladstone happy tohave you guys here. I'm excited to be sitting in this room with you guys. Wedon't get to hang up that. Often we're excited every time more in a room withyou today we got. We got a lot to cover. Iwant to talk about you, starting your company, but todayisa little bit different in that we're not going to go crazy, deep dive intothe story. If ow started the company I wantd to cover that for maybe first alittle bit, but I think what would be most helpful is to dive into actualpresentation, skills, common problems that you see and howpeople listening might be able to improve a pitch to an investor or evencommunicating Ino sales me an that sort of thing that sounds fun cool. Firstly,sostudents are often the students that I'm in front of areoften frustrated with the idea of finding your passion, and Iwanted to start with asking you guys. How did you figure out that this mightbe a thing that you'd want to do full time? Great Question? I was one of those students who wasvery frustrated by the exact same thing, and so I feel that pain and my answeris going to be so annoying to those people feeling that pain. But it onlyis clear in hindsight, and I have no idea how I found it. Ijust know that in retrospect, obviously I'mpassionate about entreprenershipabout public speaking and I combine those things and that's what I do now,but I never knew that in their shoes, and I was equally as frustrated aby.The people who told me that that's what it was all about, yeah, I think for me. It was sort of I just keptdoing different things, and eventually I sumble across thingsthat I enjoyed a little bit more and I wouldn't be surprised if my passionscontinued to evolve and it spans beyond public speaking presentation skills andthat sort of the current state of what I really seemed to enjoy. But when we were graduating from IV I sortof thought I wanted to a marketing route and then we got the option toteach and then I ended up loving teaching, and so I don't think I waspassionate about teaching. I think I went down that path and then Ideveloped a passion for Tet for teaching, so so digginto just forpeople that don't have the full back story. So you, after graduating, wentto teaching the first year business second year business program at Ivm,pointing at Uly Ihave, you taught in the second year businets program atWestern Erito in the first year. So how did you know that? That was a thingthat you might want to do? Well, so for me, actually I didn't think I wanted todo it. I was trying to recrout for a lot of different marketing jobs.General Mills, coolgate those types of companies and one of my classmates saidyou should apply for this job and my immediate response was no thanks. I'mgood and they kind of pushed me a little bit more and then I applied forit thinking I might as well. Try Not that that's the one I wanted, and aftergoing through the first round interview, I liked the people who wereinterviewing me so much that I started to want the job even more, but when Iactually got offered the job I thought about turning it down. 'cause. I wasn'tsure it's what I wanted to do and I m very thinkful. I didn't because I endedup loving teaching, but at the time I wasn't sure that it was othing. Iwanted to do and I kindof had to take a leap and go for it. I was a little bit different. I foundout that getting the job to be a faculty member right out of Undergradwas a thing when I was in first here and my faculty member was Julie Goss.She was Jule Harvey at the time and I thought that's the coolest thing I'veever heard in my life so from like month, three of first year I thoughtthat is obviously out of reach and I'll never get that job, but I wish I couldand then eventually I did, which is pretty cool, but I knew from then thatthat job was a thing and that I wanted it.

So how did you know that you might begood at it because that job, we all did it at the same time. So we we taught alot. We've been in front of groups for thousands of hours, probably at thispoint hundred hundreds and hundreds is not thousands of hours. So how did youknow that that might be a thing that you'd be good at? What did you dobefore that? That made? You think I could be good at this thing I thought about who my favoriteprofessors were, and I tried to figure out the common ground of thecommonalities between them and what I realized was the ones whowere the best were the ones that made class feel like you, weren't, evenlearning the ones that entertained you and engaged you and then the commondenominator of that I found was. They were all really really good publicspeakers, so I decided to make it my mission tobecome an amazing public speaker and that's. I thought I could accomplishthat goal and I thought by accomplishing that goal I couldprobably be a pretty good teacher too, but you were also you've done someentertainment things before yeah I was a very, very amateur actor. Litt calleda good amateur actor O it's still an amateur one, so I'd done performing inschool plays and camps and that sort of stuff- and I was I was a mentor youngerkids when I was like a counselor at summer camp. So I had teaching little little grains of teaching in me andlittle grains of performing ind public speaking and me, but I didn't reallyfully flesh itself out until I first started teaching in in prebusiness whenI, when I got that job, it's funny that pieces. Don't to your point. They don'treally make sense until you look back on them right, but, like speaker, labs, rewind, back to career intact, rewine back to Tching,twelve twenty rewind back to camp counselor, amateur actor performersinger like there's, it makes sense. Yeah! There's I heard thiss amazingquit once and I'll butcher it so you're welcome for butchering it. My favorite band is the eagles, and oneof the members of the Eagles is Joe Walsz an I was watching theirdocumentary, the history of the Eagles and what he said about their career wasthroughout it when you're in it. It feels like complete chaos, thingscrashing into each other and you're frustrated and you're fighting and it'sjust horrible chaos. And then, when you look back at it, it looks like aperfectly crafted novel. Somehow it just turned into that- and I thinkthat's true, with probably everyone's lives and everyone's careers and andalmost anything that you can think of. It only really feels like that at theend yeah. So you did the teaching thing. You did a stint in tech, a few techbusinesses, and then you ultimately made the leap together to start speakerlabs. Can you walk me through we's God wide range of how people have goneabout starting it either? This might be cool. I quit and then went off and dida thing or I'm going to start getting another thing on the tracks. While I'vegot my other thing going on so and Alli all sorts of things in between so whichwas it for you guys. So we were there. Let's dive in head first throweverything into this, so we basically, but we were working at the same TACcompany and we quit our jobs a week apart and thenwho'll go first, I quit first and yea and then Erick just completely followedme and, and then we basically spent the next three and a half four months, trying tojust build up enough of a foundation to get this business off the ground. So wedid little things like figure out our name and brand it and get a website upand running and start to have the right conversations with potential clients tolearn what they' be looking for and start trying to devel to to develop.Our curriculum, which is a big part of what we offer is, is content and ideas.And five months later we had a business anda couple of customers. I would say, though, th the sort of back storybefore just quitting and starting a company is when we were teaching. Weused to talk about communication strategies all the time we actuallylived together for one year during that period of teaching, and we would sit onour couch talking about how do how would you communicate this idea, or howcould you make something as boring as this concept, interesting to a bunch ofstudents, or even is this going to be funny? Should I make this joke in classlittle things like that too yeah, and so we would talk about all these ideasand then I remember one time in twent y twelve, we were sitting on my drivewayin the summer and we were just like how coold Ould it be if we just had like acommunication, training company and we helped academic, stop focusing so muchon research and start focuing a little bit more on making a great learningexperience for students, nd R, like yeah, that's awesome: Let's do it andthen four years goes by with US talking about that incessantly, but never doinganything. So for us once that point Hay wherwere, like we really want to dothis, we just quit went for it. So what was what was the validdation, or didyou just? Do you just know that this was going to be a thing that peoplewould pay money for like? How did you get the courage enough to say there'sgoing to be someone who's willing to pay me money to do this? We weree surewe didn't have validation in the...

...business in the market in the model weweren't sure it was going to work, but we were sure it was the right decisionto try. We had built up a little bit of of a savings account that we could relyon if the business didn't work for a few months or whatever, and we knew that if the business workedfantastic, we would start pursuing something on on our own time and building what weactually want to build rather than working for somebody else's mission and if it failed, we'd probably learn aton along the way, and when we go back into the corporate world we could applythat or maybe that'll be the exact learning. We need to start somethingelse that could work, so we weren't sure we didn't have validation, but wetrusted that it was the right call anyways. What we were sure of was that we wouldlove it. We didn't know when we would make ourfirst paycheck when we would make when we would have our third or fourth ortenth or hundreeth customer. We had no idea any of that. A D we didn't know ifany of that would come, but we knew that we were good teachers and we knewthat we would love doing it that I think we were all wa sure of so thereare different things that people wanted validation on. One of the things that people wantvalidation on is the team that you're working with so I'll quit my job when Iknow that I've got a few people around me that are also in it to the sameextent and we believe in whatever the mission is so you guys having knowneach other for so long. You actually had that piece, so you didn'tnecessarily validate the product, but you validated the team, then that youtrusted each other. You were going to be all in it together. There were someconcerns about that too. We we are best friends, first and business partner.Second, and you, you know a million stories about what happens to friendsand families who business relationships, don't go well, so that was actuallymore of a concern than o virtue. We've decided to turn it into a virtue, andthings are going really really well, but we were scared of what would happenbecause we have mutual friends and all this stuff that could have been reallycomplicated. If things didn't go so well, so we actually looked at it more fromthe other lenes than the. This is going to be a perfect partnership. Lence tostart, I would say right, right M: how did you protect against? That? Did you? I mean this is kind of a corny answer:Wr Communications Training, company and what we did is we communicated aninsane amount about like very openly and directly and candidly about thethings we were concerned about in one another, because part of the reason wewere scared is we knew we both wanted to start a company and we knew we wereboth really interested to dive in and workhard and try to make it happen. But we weren't sure exactly what one another'score values were in the business. We weren't sure you know what each person's workingstyle was. Even though we had worked together in teaching and at a start up,we weren't exactly sure how each other was going to show up when we areresponsible for everything, and so we just had a ton of very directconversations. There was one we were sitting having Sushi at this like Sushispot. We go to all the time where we, I can't even reference one specific thing,but I remember we looked at each other and just had like insanely, honest andkind of even maybe hurtful conversation where we just like laid down ouropinions of one another on the line of like here's. Why? I think you suck andEric was like Hey liehere, I I think you suck and so lookat great now. Iknow why you think I suck- and at least I can try to mitigate against that, butthose ar conversations that I don't think are Easi for people to have ingeneral, and I think probably the number one thing that's made. Ourpartnership succeed. Isn't that, where perfectly complimentary in our skillsets it's that we can communicate very honestly, and so when one of us doesn'thave the requisite skill set to do something. The other person can veryhonestly call that out- and you know, push the other person in hard ways totry to accumulate the skills or whatever. But communication wasactually the thing that draw as forward. I think the otly thing T I I'll mentione aboutthat. Is it wasn't just that conversation we had before we startedspeaker labs. It is something that we constantly work on, because we thinkthat we need to we set aside two hours every single month. We call it ourintent lunch where we just talk about. What's going well, what's not goingwell, when did you feel pissed off wh? When did you question my intentions orwhat I was doing and we never cancel it? It happens every single month and it'sfor that reason that we're confident will be fine, because we talk throughthose things so frequently with such with such radical honesty that it'snever a concern. I'm going to steal that that's a great idea. I've got afew businesses one right now with a really good friend and that's a greatidea having in intenlant why intent lunch was that I think w. We found thatthe most common misallignment was when we weremisjudging someone else's intent, Eachia Rih, so I would think Eli isdoing this because he's judging me and things I suck when really, he wastrying to help me. So we just come straight. We come we we come to the meetingwilling to be straight up with each other on. When did I think you werethinking something that pissed me off for that I didn't really like orsomething like that and when we get...

...clear on what our intent behind thethings are, things become a lot better. The actions are so much less importantwe find than the intent behind the action. So that's what we call it. Theentite LEF. Do you uys log things and then say like I'm going to bring thatup to the atten lunch like do you? Do you remember? Are you logging thingsfor the whole month or infrequently, but sometimes and there's, there's occasionally aconversation or a certain a certain thing that happens in the business thatgets very heated and we debate aton and it becomes a bit of a perpetual thingand those are we don't sit down an right notes of Liek, let's bring upthat conversation, but it's such a a vocative conversation that when we sitdown for our tent lunch, we just easily go. Hey. Remember that conversationabout that topic. That's why we should probably get clear on what the hell wasgoing on in your head and my head got it cool building on this and before weget into the actual helpful things for people looking to pitch or communicatebetter. Tell me t a story of the name 'cause. You had an interesting, thename that you ended up with. Wasn't the original name and there's some detailsin there that I found really really interesting so the name the NA I mean, I think we bothgave ourselves in assignment when we were still working at that Tech Company,but we knew we were going to quit and the assinal was come up with twentynames each and then we presented them to each other and we agreed on speakeasy. That was the perfect name. Speak Easy. So we googles spe, easy, that'sthe first thing you should probably do when you come with a business name, andwe found that there was literally a public speaking. Training Companycalled speak easy. I think what was interesting about that. If I rememberwhat I think you found interesting was that, instead of looking at it aswellcrap someone does it, someone has the name onto our next idea. What otherbusiness could we start? We actually looked at it as cool people are payingsomeone for public speaking training. Let's just come up with a new name, butthis is actually market validation. We viewed the competition as something sopositive, rather than what we can't do. It someone's already doing it so thatwas really really important, and then we decided, because of a a hobby style passion just in ourpersonal lives, for studying the science and psychology behind thingsthat maybe we should incorporate science into the name a little bit, andI don't remember how we exactly landed on speaker labs, but it was afterspeakeas he became a non option and then we decided to incorporate thescience. That's where we landed on speaker labs yeah. I often see people think they come up with thatEurega. Do the quick, Google search and say HMSOMEONE's already doing thisscrapit move on o the next one? I just found it interesting that you guys saidgreat someone's doing it. Theyre clearly have been doing it for a longtime. They must be there's a whole huge team on their website. They must bemaking some good money great. There must be space for another one. MaybeIT'S 'CAUSE! We didn't have very much other validation that we were very,very open to seeing things that could validate what we were trying to do. Youwere looking for validation. Therefore, you found it eacly yeah interesting, sowho were your first customers? How did you get your first, some of your first yeahwellso? We havedifferent kinds of customers. We have individuals who will train and thoseare typically people who are trying to build a career around speaking and thenwe have corporate clients who are looking to bring in training companiesto help their teams. Build skill sets and presentation. SCULS in publicspeaking is a pretty useful scale in business and our very very firstclients were individuals, some of which were sort of extended people in ournetworks, and some people were people who we had met along the way and kind of helpedorganically just over our careers, and then we sort of formalize it a littlebit. But our very first corporate client came because of a colleague ofours from influative had left influitive and they went to work in SanFrancisco at another big TAC company thin. It was box and they were having aconversation with a friend of theirs, saying you know hey what type oftrainir you doing t your company and they were having that sort of genreeconversation and they mentioned you should check. U The these guys atSpeaker, labs, they're, pretty awesome and she didn't even really know what wewere doing and that sparked a first meeting and we had a great conversationand that company was willing to take a fire on us. They knew that they weregoing to be our first corporate client and they were kind of excited aboutthat and it's sort of been a snowball ever since then so Yehi was just going to say so muchof a snowball that I think that if we were to track every single piece ofbusiness, we've had since then probably about eighty five or ninetypercent of our business tracks back to word of mouth. From that first clientwe ever had wel well, so textbook do an awesome job be the. I call it humble Canadiani's that aCanadian thing, but so often at least in som of my companies, where Yo'vebeen like the PR isn't traditional like let's talk about the new customers welanded. It's like we've got one shut up, do a good job N. don't do a pressrelease. They're goingto tell more people because we're doing a good jobyeah we actually very early on when we...

...started speaker labs. I think it was inour first month we met with this guy, who was a big angel investor. Heinvested in some big companies like kick and some other awesome companies,and we just sort of met with him to ask for advice. We were looking forinvestment, but one of the things he said to us was before you build out your wholecurriculum. Try to sell a client, and once you have that deal signed, then goand build what they're? Looking for and we're like cool, that's great advice.We've heard that before Ri I e try to validate that the market. Is thereready and willing to pay before you try to create the product thinking? Youknow what they want and we said cool, that's awesome advice, but we're goingto go a different route and then we spent the first four months of ourbusiness, just building our curriculum, researching everything we could underthe sin about the neuro Sciene of communication and the cogonopsychologyof of communication, the fears of public speaking and we built out ourcurriculum before we tried to sell a client- and I think, don't know if thatwould be advisable for a lot of people to do as a rute. But I think for us itworked because when we went into that first client we had put so many hoursinto making an incredible curriculum that they found it so engaging andvaluable that they wanted to keep referring us and that's where that Snoballefact started to happen. So I think for us it was a we just put so muchEforin to making something amazing, not being a hundred percent certain. It wasexactly what they wanted, but thinking that we had a pretty good sense on whatgood public speaking training would look like. So we just went for it yeah.So a couple of things that make founders really good sales people.Typically often it's a passion for Youre, doing deep domain knowledge, soyou clearly just know yourstuff better than anybody else and those two thingsoften overcome a lot of other tecniques or cloting, or way that you askquestions or anything like that, but often what people need in order to havethat expertise is to know that you know it better than the other people in theroom. So for you guys to spend four monthsgetting to getting your head around what you were going to deliver meantthat by the time you had that meeting, you were probably confident that youknew way more. You probably started with more knowledge B'cause, you wereinterested in. You had the passion, but by that point you knew way more thananybody else in that meeting and that's what Mae O sa Anfect Myn Salesperson,yeah totally the other thing was, we were lucky to start our careers asbasically professional public speakers. That's what a lecturer is really right,so we spent so many hours in our first jobs honing that skill, whereas mostother people are behind a desk, usually for their first job. We were justpublic speaking all the time and we were conscious to what was working,which was key. We weren't just public speaking blindly, so we were sort ofteaching ourselves even before we even knew this was going to come yeah. SoI'd actually like to run the math on it. But I would say that over your careers,Um 'Caus, I taught as well ' teaching now probably stood in front of a thousand audiences. Let's say maybemaybe hundreds for sure, hundreds for sure, if you think of the number ofclasses per day or per week, Um. Sometimes it's the same audience twice.But if you include the same audience, sealtable time, Yesk, thousands forsure the same the same audience, the number of times you stood in front of aroom of twenty five to a hundred, a thousand people with the spotlight onyou and then all looking at you ready to say something. I'm not talking oneon one or one to five people like an audience of, maybe fifteen twentypeople or more it's a lot. Do you still get nervous, sometimes depending th, depending on the context, so I won'tget nervous tonight for a guest lecture that I'm doing at Ivy, because I'm usedto the room. I know that I probably know a little bit more about publicspeaking than the students who are going to be there, but you put me infront of a company's board of directors for a sales meeting and I'll getnervous. Sure I well really nervous you put me in front of someone talkingabout something other than public speaking that I'm less of an expert onfor Shurill get nervous. I find that the nerves happen less frequently andI'm in better control of them, but they haven't yet, and I don't expect them toever fully go away yeahyeah. I would say I still get nervous too, but itsabsolutely contetual, there's people say the term public speaking and thenthey have this vision that occurs in their mind, this imagery of like themon a stage with fifty to a hundred and fifty people in the audiences.Typically, what people seem to picture sometimes weigh bigger audiences, butpublic speaking is so much more nuance than that. Sometimes it could be tenpeople. Sometimes it could be twenty people. Sometimes it's information,you've shared a thousand times, sometimes his information you'resharing for the first time and there's so many different aspects to apresentation that can make you feel a little bit moreapprehensive and I would say, similar to Eric. I have certain contacts that Iget a little bit more nervous an than others. But the big thing is, I think,there's another misconception about public speaking, which is the fear,goes away with repetition and that's true to an extent. But we've been infront of thousands of CRAS. Let's say-...

...and I would say we still get fear incertain contacts. The repetition required is a very, very large number.What's more important is recontetualizing the fear in your mind,from a psychological perspective so that when those nerves kick in andwhichever context triggers it for you you're able to handle that and stillshow up, can you help me disact? Then you saidpublic speaking. I agree. People often think dark room spotlight light in myface five hundred people. I think back to like a grade six speech, competitionthat I that we had to do at least I hadto do in public school, maybe w getinto that. But I won from my class and then you have to stay in front of thewhole, damn school as a grade six and give a public speed with all theparents in the background and stuff like that's what people think of whenthey think public speaking, but there's different dimensions, number of peopleand how do you carve up like the different dimensions of quote unquolepublic speaking, so I look at at four aspects of public speaking for elementsthat that define what public speaking is the standard. One is how many peopleare in your audience, but I think that's the least important component,because it's so subjective for some people, you give them ten people andthey're nervous for other people. Ten is fine, but a hundred people t',that's what makes them nervous. So that is an element of public speaking. Butfor me the other three elements that are more important. The first of thosethree elements is that public speaking tends to have a weaker feedback loopthan other forms of communication. So right now we're doing a Plod cast rightnow, we're looking at each other we're having a dialoge and there's back andforth, and I can see your head nodding right now, whereas, when you're on astage the best feedback loop you get is asking like hey how many of you likefurt loops and you look at a show of hands and it's almost binary and it'sin its feedback, and that creates a bit of a challenge for you, because youcan't really assess how am I doing in a really meaningful way like you could ina dialogue? The second element is that, typicallyin public speaking, because there's a few more people, whether it's five orfive hundred there's more variation in who's in your audience and what they'rebringing to to the table. So, if I'm speaking about, let's say why subscription base businesses arebetter than project based businesses and I've got a bunch of people who runproject companies consulting companies, then they may be sitting in thataudience with a huge bias. Gain subscription base models right, but Imay not know that, and so one of the challenges of what typically as apublic speaking environment, is that you've got a lot of variation and who'sin your audience and makes it hard to tailor your message to more people withmore diverse lenses through which they'll interpret your communicationand then the last element is that typically presentations and publicspeaking tend to emerge when the stakes are high. Rarely is somebody saying hey:can you give me a presentation? Can you get a presentation to these twentypeople just because it's a Tuesday often times its? Can you give apresentation because we have a new process? We need to optate the entiremarketing team on and now you have to go and prepare all that content and getit across to that twenty person team in a meaningful way, and so the stakestend to be a little bit higher and it's those elements of high stakes, lack ofknowledge of a divers audience and a limited feedbacklop that make publicspeakin challenging even more than the number of people in the room. There's one last thing too, that issort of covered in what he I said with the lack of a feedback loop, which isonus. When you have a conversation, the olnuss is usually shared, but whenyou're public speaking most of the responsibility is usually followingfalling on you. So that's all those things combined are part of what makespublic speaking hard and why people are nervous about it, and I think thatonests peace might be the one most closely tied to the nervousness. Theyknow. You know when you're public speaking, because you know that you'reresponsible for how this thing goes, whereas if you're sitting, you knowwith friends having a beer, this is shared conversation or you're sittingone on one having a meeting with someone. This is shared conversation,but public speaking is usually one or to maybe a few people's responsibility.So do you ever get people on ends of if, if the extreme is the extremes are oneto one and one to a million, do you find that you get people on oppositeends of those extremes being whatever fearful apprehensive whatever about one to one conversation and one to manyor most of yours, on to many fears? I know that some people fear one on onecommunication more than public speaking, because I am one of those people, I'mobviously very comfortable speaking to my best friends or family or colleagues,one on one but conversations with strangers. One on one scares me morethan public speaking does, which means that these communication fears arehighly individualized and everyone has different ones. So the very fact that Ifear one on one's more than public speaking means people must have verycomplex and very irrational fears, because that would probably seemrrational to many people. We definitely see people who have afear at the small end of the spectrum, as opposed to the large ethe spectrum,but it seems more common that people...

...are less like Erik and more like thetypes of folk who are afraid to speak in front of a big audience where theythink about. If I fail it's failure at scale, people will judge me. A' it'llruin my reputation forever and that sort of stuff is what seems to be morecommon, but there's definitely people at both enend of the spectrumandthere's. Even people who experience it equally at both ends ofthe spectrum. There's some people who just have communication apprehensionacross the Bor, whether there's ten people in a limited feedback, loop orone person and a very intimate feedback loop. They still fear it, and then there are people with reallysevere fears, we're normally takling people who are like. I get thebutterflies in my stomach and I don't get the Lat of sleep the night before,but then there's social anxieties and paralyzing and crippling fears thatcome along with communication and they're very real, too they're a littlebit more extreme, but they exist on lots of different ends on that spectrumtoo. So how do you are there any? Not that we can boil down this complextopic and two here are the things that you must do, but are there any thingsthat you find helpful to address? Maybe some of the dimensions or fears ofpublic speaking that you had mentioned earlier, or you said he, the fear of standing infront of a of a big audience. With the light on you and there's a bunch ofdimensions of M, I an expert: Is there there's different contexts in theaudience are ther ways to overcome those specific dimensions. I mean thereare tons of ways. I think it is hard to distil it down in a short conversation,but I would say: There's some very straightforward, easy things that youcan do to overcome. Some of those fears in advance of the situation, which is ahyper amount of preparation- and I think sometimes people look atpreparation and they go okay. Cool I've looked at my presentation through threetimes. Preparation is not memorization and it's not just glancing at yourstuff three times through it's it's knowing your information in yourcontent, so intimately that you can almost improvise it seamlessly becauseyou know it so well, you know all the different checkpoints you want to hitin what order, how you're going to transition from A to B and that levelof prepe really helps mitigate some of the fears, because you jus have so muchcompetence that it actually triggers a bit more confidence. There's likethere's hacks like that which are easy to do, but people don't invest enoughtime in it. There's things like deep breathing as a thing people always talkabout when you have public speaking fear, but that's another thing wherepeople will take seven dee press and go okay. I did my deep breathing. Ohcrapim, sil nervous. When really you got to do like fifty deep reahs and Igot to be really deep and consistent and continuous, and that's when yourphysiology starts to recognize that this is not a situation, that's reallythreatening to you. But I think the deeper answer is a cognitive answer.It's a psychological answer, which is, I think, whatever contact triggers yourcommunication fear and from most people it's the public, speaking typeenvironment. It's the fact that they have thoughts like I could fail, whichis true in any communication, including public speaking. You could fail, butthen they go and if I fail that's horrible and that's a terrible thing tohappen in my life, when really it kind o sucks but you'll, be Ok and I thinkthe biggest cognitive shift people can make is to look at public. Speakingfrom a Makro perspective, where, over the course of your entire life, youwill fail at public speaking a couple F times, but you'll probably succeed morethan you fail and if you look at every micropublic speaking opportunity as a chance to succeed at scale, and ifyou fail that scale, then you fall that scale and you'll get it right. The nexttime, then I think it helps mitigate those fears, but that's an easy thingto say and you' really got to get people to wrap their heads around thatnot just intellectually but very viserily, so that when the situationarises there not just repeating a Ligne to themselves of if I feil this timeI'll be okay next time, but they're really deeply emotionally aware of thatreality- R, it's a great word, viserly! Well Doey Li you've done it again. I also think that there's a huge actioncomponent to those fears can you imagine trying to get someone overtheir fear of flying, but never takin them in an airplane? Again, you want Ta. You want to take them in,as many airplane rides as possible, someone who's afraid of heights. Well,they should go skydiving and it's it's running into the fear and doing thevery things you're afraid of which will allow you to expand your psychology tothe things that you're actually capable of, if you're, afraid of beingenergetic when you're public speaking well, then that's exactly what you haveto do, if you're afraid of yelling when you're public speaking well, that'sexactly what you have to do, if you're afraid of prolonged silence when theOlness is on you to be speaking, then that's exactly what you have to do, andonly once you start doing those things. Will you start to realize you're incontrol Ofr, your fear, rather than the other way around, so I've been in oneof your workshops and I think that's part of what's so powerful about them.Is You have a a period of time where people actually have to face those headon with your help and there's free works that you provide, but I thinkthat...

...transformational experiences you get up.You face it with a little bit of a nudge or sometimes a kick in the buttif you need to, but I think that's what at least for me was so seeing thosetransformations happen was really powerful, an shihears a bit to specifically why this is relevant forpeople either starting the business growing, a business scaling business.So what often people think of presentation, Skills Training, I canthink of a few use cases. There's sales meetings. Maybe your could be a one to one or oneto a few conversation. There's a presentation to your team. Maybe it'san all hands company meeting there's, maybe you get invited to be ona Pala you're, a founder. They want someone. Some Big Tech Conference wantsyou to be on a panel or give a kynote could be a good exposure for yourcompany Thine's, a huge one. The conference culture and Tack Right nowis enormous and it's expanding into other industries too, with you K, owthe cannabis with the cannabus industry with the CRIPTO industry. There'speople need to be public speaking because people want to learn aboutthese now opportunities. So there's a huge conference culture going on sosort of, maybe within the bucket of like media training, just beingeffective on. I guess, Kino I's, probably different, being effective oncamera or on the radio versus Kino talk is more traditional, public speakingtraining, maybe yeah, I would say so what I want to start with, though, aspitches 'cause often people think at least y. You right, you come up withthe idea. You build the plan and, of course, the next lagical step. Is Youpitche to investors, which is not always the case, but it's often how itsstereoof thes stereotype. So Do you have any investor pitch specific advice,experience frameworks or anything like that W we do have a frame wor geting, theDLI, we'll probably chat about. I just a second, but my take on that is you doneed to have a baseline good idea. You can't be selling, I mean I won't evencome up with. You can't be songig paper to a paper manufacturer. You need tohave a decent idea to start, but on top of that, what the what the people aredoing when you're giving a pitch, is they're evaluating you on a very reallevel. So they need to see that you're dynamic that you can think on your feet.That you're confident is is another huge one. So, regardless of whatframework you follow, you do need to show up if you're up there, sweating oryou're up there, fumbling your words and you're not being energetic andpassionate about what you're selling, then it doesn't matter how good youridea is, so you need to have a certain baseline level of delivery. Regardlessof what format you you're following in order to be someone who makes investors want them to invest intheir company, so delivery is a huge componient. Ithink you've got a regardless of what idea you have or what you plan tocommunicate in your pitch. You got to get up there and you have to engage thehell out of the investors, and that doesn't mean you have to do a dog andPony Shell. That means you got to get up and you have to recognize that. Yes,these people are investors, but first and foremost their human beings andhuman beings have emotions and a whole complex experience of other people, andideas and you've got to just connect with them and that's a huge deliverything, regardless of what your idea is or what information you plan to share when it comes to the information,though, I think there ase some things that you can think about, I think a lotof people think there's a right way to pitch two investors, and so they end upfollowing these formulas of this is how you pitch, and then they develop theirpitch in accordance with that formula, and it tends to dilute how authentic they are abouttheir business ecause they're following this methodology when, in reality wehave a pretty simple take on what we think of good pitches. We call it thehips and a whole bunch of Amasmodel and hips is not referring to your actualwasteline. It's an acronym and the whole idea behind hips is it's about ahook an inside or problem and a solution, and you gotta Hook People into care about your presentation from the moment. You Open your mouth andthen you got to share what insight you had about a certain market or a certainindustry or a certain human need, or what problem you have you've identifiedin a certain market or for a certain segment of the market, and then you'vegot to share what solution you have. That's the hips part Hook insiderproblem and solution and then that's sort of the core component and thenthere's these sort of ancillary elements, none of which are required,but all of which can be helpful and it's up to each entreprernaur to figureout which elements are going to help them, make their idea most evocative and meaningful tothe investers they're speaking to and that's a whole bunch of ams part. Andthat's things like what market are you targeting? How big is the market?What's your model? Is it a subscription model? Is it a different kind of model?What are your metric so far? What are your mile stones that you've H to dateor that you're going to be hitting in the future, and we always say the lasttame is me, which is you got to talk about? Why are you the person andsometimes e, can be pluralized the whole team Wy? Are you the people tomake this business successful, but you...

...don't have to talk about every singleone of those things in a pitch. In fact, sometimes it's a really good idea toleave things out, like our metrics to date, by design and share an awesomehook. Problem and solution share a little bit about your market sizes andabout you and then say so: That's our pitch and now I'd like to open it up toquestions. If any would like to know a little bit about our metrix feel freeto ask and you've basically primed your investors to care about the additionalms by really honing in an amazing Hook, good problem, good solution in yourexperience, what's the best, if there's a best or most effective way to open so w. We have an answer to that whichI'm going to say as though it's a universal truth. But it's absolutelynot- and this is just in subjective opinion by myself and Eric. But wethink the best way to start is with a story. Because story has thisincredible power to cause people human beings to almost suspend their logicfor a moment and just connect at a human level. And if you can getconnected at a human level within the first thirty seconds to Aminute of yourpresentation, whether it's a three minute pitch or a fifteen minute pitch.If you can get that connection, what you've essentially done is you'vecaused your audience, your investors to open up their listening and instead oflistening through the sceptical lands of what's wrong with your business.They start listening to your pitch, looking for what's right with yourbusiness and so storys a really powerful way to do it. There's lots ofother ways. Examples very poignant data points, but stories are really powerfulway. We love when we work with entrereneurs through a lot of theseincubators in Toronto. We always help them develop strong micro stories tostart their pitches and it's a really great way to go, and is this storyabout so imagine you're Blah Blah Blah, andyou have this sort of problem. The imagine part is where you're alreadynot telling a story but you're, giving a hypothetical example. It's more aboutthe story of your realization of the problem that you're solving persons,personal yor or or someone else's realization of the problem. I wastalking to my mom six weeks ago over dinner and she realized that so maybeit's your mom and you're solving a problem for moms whatever, but usuallyit's the story of yours or someone else's realization of the problem. Thehypothetical example is another good way to go. You could do that really.Well, but that's not a story. That's an example. Yeah and not not as no nearlyas powerful, not in our opinion, but we're we're just two dudes m most presentations having sat througha lot of Lheast, the visual side of them, mostof them suck really suck the. I find that people try to more often than notput too much on a slide, I'm trying to read at the same time listening and thetwo are disjointed. So why think Yo you're, not in youmostpresentation suck? How do we fix that? You mean from divisual py fromprimarily from a visual's perspective yeah. The main thing that everyone has torealize is that they already know what bad visuals look like. When we ask ourstudents, have you ever been in a presentation and the slides look like aPhD thesis? How do you feel in the audience? Everyone says absolutelyhorrible, and then we asked them. Okay, have you ever made a presentation likethat? Yes, I have well why you know W atfeels horrible, so everyone already knows what the problem with slides are.But the problem is people then still build them. That way, I think that thebest thing that people can do is to recognize that you will overwhelm youraudience the same way you feel overwhelmed. Then you start tuning outwhen you're overwhelmed, so don't put that on the audiences that you'respeaking to the most fun fact that we'd like tothink about is we we found out why phone numbers are seven digits longphone numbers are seven Didghes Long, because that fits in to a human'sworking memory. Working memory is sort of like the ram on a computer. It'swhat a human can process in real time at anyone given time before they juststart to shut down, because now there's too much going on and I can't processanything ther, the human will crash, like a computer crashes, that's whyphone numbers aren't ten thousand digits long and instead they'rs sevento just long, because that you can handle the same thing needs to be trueon your slides. If there's more than seven words on your slide, youraudience is going to start to shut down seven words: seven words: Ive Sev,morpoint, seven words, seven words on one Sloud, here's the good news. No oneever said that every single point, prertending to a certain subject, needsto be on the same slide. If you're going to talk about marketing andyou've got seven marketing bullet points. Well, then you should haveseven marketing slides, not seven marketing bullet points on one slide, I think one other thing for people tomake note of is when you open up a new powerpoint or google slides or akeynote. If you actually look at the default setting, there's a textboxuptop that says put your title here and then a taxbox, that's a little biggerthat says, put your sub titles or your bullet points here and so powerpointand Keno, and all these things they almost subconsciously incept you tostart designing your slides in a way that will overwhelm people's workingmemory, it's going to create cognitive load and they can't process all that'son your slide and what you're saying,...

...as well as trying to process your body,language and all the other stuff that comes through and communication. Sowhen you open up a power point or a Keanout, here's a simple piece ofadvice start with a blank slide, delete thosetax boxes, start with a blank slide and ask yourself the question: What is thesimplest visual I could put on here to compliment? What I'm trying to getacross and simplicity is your friend. If your slide is just a picture, that'sfantastic! If your slide is five words, that's fantastic, but less is alwaysmore when it comes to a visual aid advice on choosing the right visual aid,then. So, if I, if my topic is marketing for this bodcast- and I wantto talk about how we're going to do the marketing for the pot guest and we'regoing to do online ads, my bullets could be describing all the you know the where I'm going toput it and how much its going to cost me and my conversion metrix and myestimated number of customers that I'm going to get and that's probably a copyin paste from an excel sheet somewhere with baby picture, a logo of a Googleand a facebook and Uto and all my different ads. What's an alternative tothat? What we always tell people to do is take all the notes that they want toget across in that slide and put it in the note section or write it down on apiece of paper, but have it somewhere that isn't on the coarse, lide and thensit down in your chair, close your eyes and visualize something anything andwhatever you visualize tends to guide you towards what you should put on theslide and it'll always be complimentary to what you're saying it will notsupplement. So, for example, you said we've decided for marketing we're goingto use online channels close your eyes for a seck and picturesomething. What do you picture? What visualization just occurred in yourmind, Google, Ergbur cool, so put a google search bar on your slide, just a picture of a google picture of aGoogle search bar and that still acts as a trigger for you to talk abouteverything you want to talk about, there's a little bit more proper quired,but you could also create a couple of other slides and then, when it comes tothe actual metrix, put a slide with one metric and then another slide withanother matric, and now you've ended up y. u creating three slides one that hasa google search bar one that has metric a and one that has metric B and that'squick and easy to process. Simplicity is your friend we alwas do this fun exercise that Ithink, allows people to sort of get the point of what we want them to be doing.Let's say you wanted to give a presentation on why starbucks is agreat coffee experience. What happens is everyone will put a starbucks Legoon the slide? That's fine, that's better than ten bullet points, butthat's still not optimal. Here's how you get optimal! You start to visualize:Why is starbucks such a great coffee experience and then you come up withamazing things like because they spell your name wrong and that's funny. Well,that's a great slide. Your name spelt wrong on a starbucks cup or becausethis service is always so good. They remember my name well how about apicture of a smiling Barista? Those are your visuals and your point issomething different hm. Sometimes we get pushed back frompeople when we tell them to create these overly simplistic, slides thattend to be a little bit more visual and a little bit less text, heavy that thatthe pushback is whill. So I'm going to give this presentation Ito a bunch ofinvestors, particularly franc, pruners, pitching and then they're going to askme to send over my pitchdeck and I can't go and send over a picture of astarbuck's Cup right. I I can't send a picture of a Google search bar. I needto have a little bit more contact there, and so we always like to distinguishthere's a difference between a visual aid in a presentation and a pitchdeckthat acts as a report, and I think sometimes people don't distinguish thetwo. So they feel the need to create a presentation aid, a visual aid that ismore akin to a report than it needs to be got and then nothing stopping peoplefrom having the table with the estimated marketing spend andconversion metrixs and an appendix or something. If, if that's, where,inevitably what I would think, if someone showed me a picture of a Googlesearch bar is like googll search bar and then the number ten you know which tencustomers per day that we're going to get from this channel. If the questionis I sud get there like? How did you arrive at ten to have a back up thatsays? Here's my rough mass to fig forhowwe got. There might be anEffectiv way to do it versus showing the appendix as part of the core deckand I'll. Tell you why it's such such a better way to go. It's so much better having someone sayso you said you're going to get ten customers a day through this channel.How did you arrive at that number Versas, someone going how manycustomers did you say you were going to get from this channel? I couldn't pickup what number it was 'cause. You showed it to me in the contexts of tenother numbers, and I can't process that much stuff at one point in time. Soit's better to get people to accumulate a small set of information and inquirefurther than have been trying to get ten points across and have none of themactually pass that carnal Allis it more fun to work with...

...people who are bad and get them to be okay or good, oris it more fun to work with people who are good and make them great both arefun we really enjoy both. But if we had to choose it's not even close gettingsomeone from passing out at the front of the room or crying in front of theircolleagues, which we have literally seen too confident and pretty damn good,there's, no better feeling than that. That's the best thing in the world:it's the thing that we like most about ourjob, probably Soso, taking someone from an eight to a nine is really fun. Buttaking someone from a two to an eight is unbelievable and in those cases Idon't want to pat ourselves on the back too much because they don't have enevery single day. But in those cases what you sometimes do asyou change lives, you don't make someone a better public speaker. Youcompletely change their relationship with their fears in their own internalpsychology and that's pretty cool, powerful, really cool for entrepreneurs.I want to come back to the different different ways that entrepreneurs arecommunicating, so maybe we'll do some quick hits if we think about thedifferent areas that I talked about, maybe like an internal team meeting,any quick hit advice for I'm running in all hands. How can I make this allhands better than the last one, where I just droned on for sixty minutes and nointeraction and just me the whole time? How could I make in all hands great one piece of advice that I gave tosomeone actually last week was stop thinking of yourself as the presenterand start thinking yourself is the facilitator, so ask everyone what theywant this to be about keep a running list and then start going through thatstuff, so at least they're engaged, especially when they see that it's timefor their question. They just asked and get some discussion going when you makeyourself speak for three hours straight out in all hands, doesn't matter howamazing you are that could potentially get a little bit old, but when youstart to get everyone else involved en you're, facilitating the conversationand facilitating the day rather than just speaking the whole day. I think anew version of you shows up so that that's one little quick hit for me. This may not be isolated just tointernal meetings or town halls, but I think when we design curriculum, wealways have two particular lenses on when we'redesigning wenwe're, researching and designing what we want to teach people.And it's is this valuable and is this entertaining and we used to have these debates about youkno? How much should it be eighty percent valuable and twenty percententertaining or should it be some other breakdown and what we realized? Itshould be a hundred percent of both, which is a weird way, a and there'sprobably some quantity of person. Lisen N, not going you idiot, there's no suchthing as a hundred percent of both, but we look at it that way where we say anypresentation that we give should deliver. Some value convey some idea,some information, but it has to be incredibly entertaining and there's alot of different ways to create entertainment value, but if you're,giving a town hall or you're presenting something internally, sometimes thenature of what you're speaking about can be a little bit drier you're you'retalking about a new process, you're talking about a reorganization of thecompany and sometimes that's a little bit dry. You got ta find ways to makeit entertaining the easiest way to do. That is with your delivery. Instead oftrying to think of creative ways to moulge your ideas into something,inharenly entertaining get up there and have fun, don't you don't you stand upthere and recite the information back to people get up there and like reallytry to engage them at a very deep level and have fine? Don't you stand in oneplace and just try to rip off a bunch of points walk around the room? Somepeople will say like I'm at the front of the room and I have to stay the Fartof the have a walk to the back of the room. I bet you if you do that in apresentation, if you're a town hall, medium of company O hundred and fiftypeople, I guarantee you people at the back of the audience, are going to belike wha, what's happening right now, the moment you walk to the back of theroom with the microphone, so I would say fine ways to create entertainment,not just value your point about questions and engag ing the audience.Why don't people do that more the fear of how unpredictable it is. How do they overcome that? If they doat all, I mean I, I think, there's a couple ofways: th the simplest ways to wrap your head around ambiguity as agood thing and get comfortable saying I don't know if somebody presents aquestion that you don't actually know the answer to it's totally. Fine peopleactually love vulnerability. It's one of the things that connects humanbeings, the most is when one person is vulnerable in front of other people. Soif, if you open it up to questions, you really try to give people theopportunity to ask questions, empower it. Let it happen, don't avoid it,because it's unpredictable and there's a lot of uncertainty that comes with it,acknowledge that and feel totally cool to say. I have no idea what the answero. That question is, but it's really fun Whyn t e. We should have vaskogetfurther. That was actually my biggest fear when I got that job that we wereferencing earlier. When I became a lecturer, I was twenty two. I knew Iknew for certain that my students were going to know things that I didn't know.I was not as much of an expert as I...

...should have been so my biggest fear wasbeing faced with, and I don't know situation and when I allowed myself tostart saying, I don't know I'll, let you known an email later today or I'll,come back to class with the answer tomorrow. That's when the entire worldopened up for me, you need to be comfortable being fully authentic,which means also being vulnerable, which means also not knowing the answerto things open it up to discussion. You know I never thought of that. But whatdo you all think? I bet you? Some people will say some cool stuff, sodon't feel like you need to be the guru that couldn't be further from from thetruth. I guess different from an investor meeting, it's tougher to openit up to the group, but that was a great one, a great learning for me whenyou generilely, don't know either just saying I don't know, or I don't know the right answer. What doyou guys think another one that I find helpful when you're getting intoquestions is clarifying? Why somebody asked the question? So that's a reallygood question. Why did you ask that and often I've seen? Recent example happened where there wasa pitch competition? A judge asked a question about the business. They hadto literally come up with this business five minutes ago. So he asked aquestion about it and said how far like out of curiosity, how far along are youin this process and the person pitching took it as because you know likeclearly, because I, as a judge, can tell that you're? No nowhere with thislike wborn yesterday, this was a terribleidea is what she heard, but what he was actually asking was. Is this a realbusiness because I'd be interested in investing, and so she her answer was like werenowhere. We just started this five minutes ago, like lay off, whereas ifshe would have said that's a really interesting question, why do you askthat question? His answer would have been because it's a great idea and I'dlove to invest also shows a level of thoughtfulness of the presentor too,which is kindo cool yea. You can't, I think, if you got a fifty minutequestion period, you can't do it again and again n again, but it gives you thebenefit of having some extra time to think. But knowing why somebody askedit is really really powerful. I want to come back just for a second to P, toprepping the presentation when someone's prepping, what's yousaid, take your notes, put it in the notes section and come up with thevisual for the notes, any advice on how to structure that like if I'm sitting down withpresumably and I either an idea in my head or a business plan on paper and now thetask is to and Business Plan People think like twenty page business plan,I'm talking one pager an idea. What is it who's it for those sorts of things,advice on where to start 'cause you're suggesting don't open the Templatinpowerpoint and start with what they've got there? But if I've got my idea, I've got fifteen minute presentation that I'vegot to give on the idea this Friday. Where do I start? Do you have anysuggestions for frameworks or do use a whiteboard or put it on piecesof paper and move it all over the place? How I start, but one of the things youcoald do is follow. He lies hips and a whole lot of ams model. I do think that, starting with a hookis always where you should start in your presentation, but that's notnecessarily. The first thing you do is the creator. I think the first thingyou probably do is the Creator is: Ask yourself questions. What's everyonegoing to be wondering about this and then you can structure those answers asthe structure of your presentation, how you get to and from each chancirrequires a little bit of finess, but if you can think, what's everyone going tobe wondering about this? That's a really great section of yourpresentation. I bet so asking yourself. Questions I think, is a good place tostart, and that's so as a team. If you've got a business concept andyou've got to put together presentation sitting in a room and saying what is the base line level ofconpedence people are going to have about this they're going NA wonderabout this they're gon NA wonder about that, like it's actually listing outthose questions as a starting point, yeah for sure, why is this businessgoing no work? Why are you the right people? You end up o coming back to theends, I think on those questions, but just as a really quick example, we knewthat as part of our presentation skills workshop, we had to teach storytelling,so we thought to ourselves. Well, okay, what are people going to be woneringabout storytelling, his story telling actually important? Why does story work?How do you become a better storyteller and those are literally the sections ofour workshop on storytelling? All we did was think about what are peopleoing a want to know about this, so well, you're right, there's some fundamentalthings at any business, any judge or investors. Gonna Wonder is: Is thisgoing to work? Will People Buy? It? Are people buying it already is theirattraction. What have you done to date? Who areUKENS working on it? causetre are all questions that you can anticipate. Youcould almost list out all of the anticipated questions figure out whichones you want to address in the core of the presentation and then have makesure that you rehearsor prepare someone...

...your answers for the other ones thatyou inevitably know you're going to get. If you thought about it for fiveseconds, when you do that, you also end up asking the right questions that arespecific to your business rather than crew, following some catchall frameworkthat mayor may not be rather than googling how to make a good pitchtirack downloading watch to tempplates and trying to fill yours in yeah. I want to get to wrapping up here, butrewind the tape back many years, and it can be as it relates to communication,skills or presentation, skills, but advice to your twenty year old selves. My advice to my twenty year old self isto stop being so stressed out my first year Ad Ivy in particular. What hit melike? A ton of bricks I was always the the Hie achiever one of the beststudents in the room, and then I got my exam schedule and I realize that classstarts at eight am every day and I still want to go like with my friendsand have a social life and Blah Blah Blah, va, liss went on and on, and I Irealized that I was not going to get to do everything I wanted to do if sleepwanted to be a part of it and that absolutely ruined it, especially thatfirst semester I was so stressed out, and that made meunhappy and happiness is the goal right. Another time in my life when thathappened is when I finished my Mba, I wanted to find the perfect job and whattha meant was. I was unemployed for a little while, and so I woke up everymorning so stressed out about being unemployed ad. I just leaned into thatand enjoyed my time that would have been so much better. So it's less aboutyou shouldn't have done that or you should do this, but more it's more of aperspective. Piece of advice: Don't allow yourself to be so stressed. Youknow everything's going to work out, stop allowing people to t to get to youwhen they ask do you have a job yeah? What was your Mark Blah Blah Blah? Thelict goes on just manage your stress. That's the biggest thing. I'd say for me, the biggest piece ofadvice I'd give myself is that indecision is worse than the wrongdecision. I feel like I spent so much time worrying about what the rightdecision would be in playing out the different pros and cons and and almostlike mapping it out into the future so far that it was ludicrous trying tofigure out what the right answer is, and then I was in that space of limboso perpetually that it was so frustrating and it was anxiety anddusaying and just stressful, and I think it's better to make a decision,even if you're not sure it's the right one, because you get so much moreinsight from a wrong decision than from trying to think your way through to aright decision. And I think about that when I accepted the job teaching, Iwasn't sure if it was the right thing or the wrong thing, and I played somany hours of the Rationalle game trying to figure out. If that's what Ishould do or should I go the consulting or marketing path, and I, like I'd, bemyself silly, trying to figure out the right answer. When eventually I decided to go teaching, Ishould have just chose something it's good to play. The rationale game alittle bit to try to put a bit of thought behind your decisions, butdon't get stuck in limbo. 'cause. The wrong decision is way better thanindecision. That's good! Vice where's, your favorite place to think. If you dohave a place for me, it's rather than a place tothink it's a context in which to think I love thinking in the context of otherpeople. My mess thinking is done when Eric and I are sitting on a couch justlike shooting it. You know and just havingfun and just in dialogue. I think I think the most freely 'cause. I don'tput pressure on myself to come up with ideas, I'm just sort of exploring andit's almost like going to the mental gym and you're doing a workout andthrough that workout cool ideas come like thinking aloud, talking, troproblems, yeah yeah and I don't think that's the right right way to do thingis just what works for me, but I think, put me in any environment as long asthere's other people that I can bounce ideas off and play that mental work outwith that's the best. For me, I'm the opposite. I spend at least an hour every singlenight and usually almost a full day every Sunday, just by myself learningand it I usually comes in the form of utube or Wikipedia binges, but that'swhat I do my best thinking when I'm completely alone, so I mean I sad, hedoesn't think that's the right way. We have literally opposite answers, so Imean I guess the real answer is to each their own, but but you M, youspecifically make time to do it. I specifically make time to do it and Ido it. I don't do it because I'm trying to become smarter really I do itbecause I enjoy it. If I'm being honest with myself, but yes, I do, I do it allthe time you ha mourning your night people. I am a night person, I used to be a night person and I havebecome a morning personand. It's I like it so much better. So much more fun. Doyou you talk to a mental workouts. Do you meditate at all or do anythin Monall this type, O stuff, wh n? When did you start? I started meditating, probably aroundthe time that we started speaker ladrly and it's B, Ebs and flows right,there's been times when I' been meditating every single day for threemonths and then there's six month stretches where, like I'm meditatingonce or twice in that entire period, but I find...

I find it very helpful to try toobserve my own mind and I don't know I don't even know what the right way tomeditate is, and I certainly know that whatever the right way is, I'm notdoing it right. But it's very cool for me to observe my mind, doing weirdthings and it helps me stay a little bit crowded and I think it actually ismaybe the single most important thing to help me come up with ideas for ourcurriculum, because I can see when my mind is clouding my ability tobrainstorm and think freely. So are you coming up with the ideas in thosemeditations or no I'm I'm I find what's happening. IsI'm like decluttering my headspace a little bit and then, when we sit downto brainstorm, that's when my ideas start to formulate a little bit more,but instead of spending forty percent of my mental bandwith worrying aboutcoming up with the right idea. I've got 've. I've come to terms with thosestupid thoughts that enter into my headspace, sometimes that serve nopurpose, and I can observe them for what they are and then go okay chillout and that mental bandwith gets reallocated towards brainstorming, andso it seems to be more a practice in declattering so that I have a bit moremantal band bit farther stuff interesting. It's like a discdyfragment. Remember those back in e Yeah I like that. I haven't thought of it.That way, I m I'm definitely an amateur yeah medicator. I also I find workingout in Yoga. Those types of things are also meditative physically doingsomething yeah the meditation to your point of when it then comes time to putyour mental horse power into something. I find it easier to push out the othercrap and say all right now mine. You need to now focus on this problem forthe next little bit. I think training yourself to be able to whin it's timeto think like actually think that way, that's how I've found it helpfulrecently, yeah and to be honest, I still suck at it, I'm a lot better than I used to be so Isuck less I'm eager to get to the point where I' become good, but right now Ijust suck less thend I used to suck yeah. They talk about it like similarto the way that you go to the gym and work out like go the weight, at leastwhen I first started. I was ten minutes and the metetim that I spent in thislike enstate, was zero percent and even now most days is still one percent, butit's actually the process of. Oh, my gosh. All of these thoughts are cominglabeling them and going whoopget rid of that thought. Verses like I'm in thisweird zenfully, peaceful heart as calm state. It's the practice of gettingthat crab out of the way yeah. It's definitely not Zennot. It is useful. Isthere anything else that you'd want the audience to know about you guys or yourcompany? We? Where do we find spe your labs? If we're interested, we find speaker labs at Speaker, labsDatzie, we're in Toronto, but we love traveling and you can email us at Ericat speaker, Labsdodcia or Eli Speaker Labs, Dozie. Eric will get back tofaster, though awesome. I didn't ask it in the beginning. So I'm going to askit now, speaker labs in a nutshell, what aspeaker labs! What does it do? We create awesome public speakers tight, really tight. I, like that clearvalue proposition nice messaging, I used to say we were a public speakingtraining company less of a ring to it. I think the health work yeah, the ideaof trainings come back an the morewrap up, the idea of being a trainingcompany, feel's old school. Somehow yeah, I don't know what the right wordis for explaining taking what we do, bottling it up andhelping other people be better. I don't know what the new age word for it, butlike a facilitator or a a trainer y. u get a weird visual, visilization Eland.I got so much explicit and implicit flack from ourfriends and family when we were starting speaker labs. For that reason,what do you mean you're, staring training, company or and teach me howto public speak? They just they didn't see the opportunity at all, so that wasreally hard for us to navigate, because we obviously want to be accepted bypeople. Everyone does and only once people started sort of seeing it cometo life. Did they realize thiswill be a little bit of a different take andwe're going to make it discurrent as we possibly can, and this can actuallywork, but I would say it was hard for us to stick to our guns a little bit,but were God we did awesome? This has been great. I we don't get to hang outall that frequently, but it's nice to capture a little bit of ourconversation. I think round to at some point, is going to be a little bit morecasual. Do it in Mysona e, Drinkin and or something San. But honestly, it'sbeen great to see the Growt throughyur business. It's really cool to see youguys, having the courage to leave and start something that didn't have ollvalidation and to see it not coming to life, but thriving. Imean the the companies and the brands that you guys work with are if you dreamed up brands that you'dlove to work with, if you, if you were starting this company- and you createdthe wireframe for your website and said what would be the best logos to have onour website- you've got them. Yeah. We've certainly got a few of them. Th,there's more that we're after, but we definitely have some that we neverwould to believe that we have at this point. So that's pretty cool. Thank ropoint of that out y you've done you've...

...done a phenomenal job so having beenthrough it t it's been great, and I think that my my class is going to get a ton of valuefrom it. Speaking of we're Goin to get running, so thank you guys, fere comingin Forsom of the time we love you, you've been listening to the Ivioncmenor potcast to ensure that you never miss an episode subscribe to the showin your favorite podcast player, or visit ivy dot ca forward, slashentreprenorship! Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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