The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

7. How to Grow your Start-up with GrowthTO Founder Emily Lonetto

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week’s Ivey Entrepreneur podcast features Emily Lonetto, HBA’16, founder of GrowthTO, the largest community of growth and product practitioners in Canada.

Emily’s career ambitions have ranged from Rockstar (she literally sang in an alternative rock band in Toronto), to promoter, to entrepreneur and growth marketer.  Her experiences on the growth team at Tilt (acquired at AirBnB) kick-started her career in growth, and she has since held positions at numerous high profile start-ups and scale-ups such as PartnerStack, Clio, and Voiceflow. 

In this episode, Emily helps us understand what growth really is, how to spot talent for your growth team, and uncovers the tactics behind several well-executed growth initiatives that she has participated in.

You're listening to the Ivy Entrepreneur podcast from the Pierre L Morrisse at Institute for Entrepreneurship at the Ivy Business School. In this series I be entrepreneur and Ivy Faculty member Eric Janssen, will anchor the session here with Emily Linetto from growth too. Emily, good to have you on the podcast. Thanks for having me. No problem. It's always nice to have not going to say recent alumni, but I always like to talk about degrees of separation and I feel like your degrees of separation from the current group of students here at IV is so small that you're very relatable. So thanks for coming back. Yeah, a problem. It's always so weird and also great to come back and kind of see how things have changed. So thanks for having me. Have they changed? I would say yeah, a little bit. Slightly different facilities. You know, the microwave wasn't where I thought it was going to be. But yeah, no, it's interesting to see like the new faces, the new realm of Ivy sweaters from the hallway. Of course the swag is changed. The buildings change. Yeah, the swagger of the build swagger has yeah, good, so you're spending a lot of time on growth too, and in the growth space. I don't I don't want to beat a dead horse, so we don't need to define like what is growth, but maybe just describe a little bit the projects that you're working on related to growth too right now. What is that organization all about? Yeah, so growth Heo actually was an organization that I started, I would say, out of my second job out of school, when I was coming in as the first growth person, first marketer, first female, as well as while someone outside of the core group at a startup, and was trying to come in and figure out how can I work with the team that's never worked with a growth team before, after coming out of a job where I was previously on a growth team that was pretty established at a company called tilt, and establishing growth tio really came from kind of conversations like this. We're connecting with people. I just wanted to figure out what did people know that I just didn't, because you can't grow, even as like a person, if you're not exploring outside of that. And what started off as a ridiculous shortlist of like fifty growth leaders in Toronto and in North America quickly turned into basically like a mutual event session amongst growth leaders trying to figure out how can you not only grow the startups that you're in, but also your connections, your own learnings and connect with people that were going through the same things. So it started off informally with Coffees, turned into voute, two hundred members across Toronto and now in last year we've scaled it from merging as well as growing our own community to now two thousand five hundred members across North America. That is fantastic. So often a lot of younger. I see younger but it's twenty something students that I'm interacting with. They don't know or not familiar with language of startup. So ...

...you know, str ae, customer success growth. They don't really know what it is. So let's not go textbook definition, but like, what what would someone who's graduating from ivy do in a growth role? What does the actual work of a growth person? What's kind of funny to me is that like growth in a lot of ways is actually so similar to a lot of the stuff that we do in Ivy, at least, like from from a perspective and foundational standpoint. Like what growth really is is you are sitting at the intersect of different departments. You're looking holistically at a company and trying to figure out what are the areas that you can make a big impact on the company. So often growth will sit in between marketing, product sales. Sometimes will sit under one of those departments. But for the most part why I say it's actually kind of similar to some of the stuff that we apply here is really what students can expect going into a role is you're going in, you're analyzing. You're analyzing the components in in front of you. What are the resources that you have? What are the goals that company or where you'd like to go? You're establishing constraints, you're putting in what measures for success you're going for and you're coming up with the plan. I often actually think about it a lot like how I used to approach ivy exams, where you can put in like seventy five kids in a single sex and you're going to get seventy five different answers. And in a growth roll you're pushing your answer forward rather than just giving that and hoping that someone chooses it. Cool. So say I'm one man show or me and a partner starting a business and I think I want to. We've got some sort of Minimum Bible product that we put out there interesting traction. Maybe some people are interested. I've got some a couple users. How do I make the decision between investing in marketing roles or sales rolls or growth roles? who like wh who should I be hiring at what stage? So there's a lot to unpack there, but I think a good way of always looking at it is, especially early on, you're looking for people who are multifaceted, who are able to really take a look at of the problems and of the product that you currently have, like what is the biggest area of impact that you have? Do you need more customers? So, in this case, of the customers that you have early traction with, how many of them are staying? How many of them love the product? have any of them have you been spoken to? So before you even think about hiring new people, it's how many of your existing customers have you engaged with? How many of them are from your, let's say pre existing relationships versus ones that have organically or, let's say, outside of Your Network of joined? Oftentimes, I think the mistake that early stage startups will do is they'll hire someone specifically to fill x roll right at the beginning. As assuming that the product is at a certain point where you have product market fit, which is a little bit beyond having a minimum viable product,...

...and what that means is, instead of having something that just functions so like a minimum, minimum viable product, will basically be something that at least serves a purpose and you can do some basic testing on versus product market fit. So does that product actually fit with the audience that you're going after? When you find a base level of that, that's when I would always recommend starting to look for someone really focused on growth. Before that, you want to look for someone who is probably growth minded but is able to do maybe some of those other siloid works. HMM, so you're saying beyond MVP, you found some initial product market fit. So you said earlier you're selling to people beyond your immediate network or referral. There are people organically starting to find your product. Yes, is there, and this is so hard to overgeneralize, but if you had to over engineer it, could you give an idea of at what like revenue stage is? That is this? Do you see pre like seed stage companies hiring growth rolls, or is it typically after someone's done a raise where they're like, wow, now there are expectations to grow at a certain rate, we need not mean to now hiate growth person I would say that you definitely have growth minded leaders that come in at seed. Those are people are setting the foundation for that. So, like growth is really data heavy, it's really centric on understanding the product, understand the consumer being able to have access of the information. Often at seed stage you want someone who's going to go in and actually set up all the infrastructure for that. They'll probably be the person who understands how to use it, but that's a slightly different skill set then going out and, let's say, hiring a growth coordinator, growth manager, who maybe be coming in to optimize a channel that's pre existing. And I think that those types of hires tend to typically come in series a or maybe seed round. So the more specific growth highers happen at a later stage, but the more broad higher could happen relatively early. Oh, absolutely, and I think there's never too early of a stage to have somebody who is growth minded coming in and setting that challenge, setting that foundation, because if you get someone that's like that at the beginning, it's contagious and you want every department to be thinking about that at all times. So you you've talked about the role of a Swiss army knife. So I'm not going to I'm not going to debate it, but let's have a discussion around it, because there are there's always a rule for a Swiss army knife. In the beginning there's this period of thrashing. You've got to get a bunch of things set up, you've got up, you're learning, so someone that could do a bunch of different things is good. I've found that over time the need for a multi purpose person wanes and then you need to get specific people in those roles. I haven't yet effectively transition to a Swiss army knife into a more senior role. That may be totally my own fault. So do you always need a Swiss army knife or their stages where Swiss army knife is more valuable than other stages? See, I think that it's really...

...dependent. Like I think there's some people who are really damn good at scaling a company from like series a to series B or from B to C, and then there are people who come in and later stage than they really own and the development of Department or a silo, and I think that I would say as someone who identifies probably as like a Swiss army knife and has had success in trying to build out like teams and also train other people to develop other types of tools outside of what would be their knife. So their core skill set, I would say maybe at the beginning there's a little bit more freedom and like you are looking for people who maybe like to navigate the chaos and they use the fact that there are Swiss army enough to do that. Those people will probably outgrow or be outgrown by the company at a certain point. The people that are able to like pull out those tools when needed but still understand what their core purpose are. I think those ones become extremely strong leaders, becausese. They are able to deeply empathize with things outside of their scope, which sometimes might be necessary as the company really does go into the next phase of growth. So how would you identify, given that some people may not even know that there are growth potential growth person how would you, as a company identify someone who might have that talent? They may not have labeled themselves as a growth person, but you might see you you're looking to hire. How could you identify someone that has early signals that they would be successful at a growth role? Are there traits? I think that they're definitely like there are some easier to spot traits versus questions that I like to ask to kind of get down to it. The easier to spot ones are often entrepreneurial type people tend to be really good at growth. I love talking to failed entrepreneurs, to be honest, when it comes to trying to figure out who would be good in that mindset, because they were able to make something from nothing and even if it didn't succeed. That part so hard and require so much mental capacity and emotional strain that a lot of people that come in and have tool set up for them aren't used to and it's deeply like it's so important to be able to not only empathize with that, but kind of get into the mindset of that, because often with growth you're not just optimizing channels or campaigns or tools that are there, but you're also building and you're challenging the stat the status quo, which is actually very similar to early stage entrepreneurship. Other things that I think are really good signs when you're talking to someone is I'll often give them like a pretty simple question, like, let's say, this is like a silly example because I rarely am trying to solve this problem, but let's say you start a blog and we decide that we want to get let's say, a hundred hundred subscribers and the next like thirty days, which is like maybe aggressive for some types of companies. I would ask how would you do that, and most people would be able to give me some pretty basic answers off the top, but you keep drilling in.

So, let's say after they say the basic things, being like I'm going to write a few posts and I'm going to promote them through paid or the kind of typical song and dance there, you would come back and be like okay, well, you got fifteen. Now what? and You keep doing that and you keep squeezing to see what happens when they're in a crunch and they have a deadline and they don't know how they're going to hit it, and see if they ask questions, see how crafty they get, and giving them those tasks or even sometimes asking okay, like what company do you love? Why do you love it? Why is it growing to you cool, like what would you change about it? How could you make it better? And keep digging in on that, because often it's not the first question that you ask that identifies whether or not someone is able to be scrappy and think through those problems. It's often like the fifth or sixth and I also love when people just say they don't know and start to ask questions, because that's a huge component of the job as well. When you're hiring someone in that role, is it? Do you ever assign them tasks like takeaway task ors at all interviews in the room, I've never personally assigned something like crazy. Like for the most part I'll be like come in prepared to like talk about x, because I like to think through like if I was genuinely in a room with this person and we're trying to solve a problem, how are they going to do that? I love seeing people whiteboard out problems because I genuinely just want to know. How does your mind work, like, how are you going to contribute to an active conversation when a lot of us are probably going to be aligned on problems, but will vary based on our perspectives and very based on what are the components that each one of us are going to carry out in order to make that happen. I have, however, like gone through interview processes where I myself is put have put together presentations or have done tasks, and one of the things that I would recommend, if there is somebody who is interested in growth, is like you're typically looking for somebody who will challenge the status quo or who is thinking slightly differently based on the information that's at hand. And often when I've seen with takeaway kind of projects or exams is they'll give you the same information they give a lot of people in a department, and it's kind of your job to sit there and be like, let's say, if they're like what channel would you double down on next quarter, like I dare you to say that you would try something new and explain why you would try that instead of doubling down, or situations like that, I've personally done in the past. Cool can you think through, just to root this in something practical or tangible. So I think people have a decent idea of what growth is and the types of people that are successful at in those roles. Can you talk through some example, some really good growth related examples that either you've been a part of or seen, and they can be super famous and popular, or maybe some under the radar things that people made not I've heard of before. All start with like probably the most like famous examples of it, just to kind of like root it, but dropbox and our BNB are probably like on the top of the list in terms...

...of amazing growth campaigns, the first one being drop boxes referral program arguably one of the first ass products to absolutely nail referral programs, and the poor people that have tried to copy them since something. Sometimes it just doesn't work again. They got me. That was really so. That program was the sign up to get get a friend to sign up to get more space. Right, yeah, and what's brilliant about that is they didn't do it in a way where it felt transactional to the point where you didn't feel shady for getting a kick back for getting a friend on board. Most people probably didn't even know what storage was online at that time because a lot of people had external hard drives, and drop boxes trying to pitch for cloud storage and they did it in a way that was so visual as well. We're basically you'd hit their landing page, it would get you to sign up and it showed basically this rocket ship that was trying to take off and you were at x percentage when you first started and you would gain, I guess, further traction as you started to invite people and at each level you'd get x amount of gigabytes for free, and that part was really great. But they also gave away in kind rewards. So instead of focusing on monetary they were focusing on the storage, the actual product that they were giving and they were only giving more of their product to the people who actually helped grow their product, which is also pretty brilliant. So you ended up having hundreds of students referring other students who would care about it and wanted to Max out how much storage they would have and get the same friend to do the same thing, and it resulted in a crazy amount of growth in a small period of time. You talked about the element of design there, the rocket ship launching. It just made me think of the Cross functional component of this role. So like they would have in order for dropboxs to execute that campaign like what you live in, that higher texass world. Now, what teams would be involved in a campaign like that? So I'm extremely biased and think design thinking should be put into absolutely everything, because one of the most universal languages out there. That doesn't need to be translated as design. And we talked about that with metrics, we talked about that with math and those types of situations. But really the first thing that people notice about any product is what does it look like? How does it feel? What does it make me feel? And those often don't come from reading and they don't come from someone explaining it. It will come from a gut instinct reaction and that's all design thinking and can be controlled. I think with the program like dropbox, there's like a brilliant article on first round on growth designers. Drop box has a crazy team for that. That I would highly recommend reading for anybody WHO's interested in that space. But I would definitely think your design growth team would be in there. Typically on growth teams you'll have a growth analyst, they'll have a growth pm as well, growth marketer, and I think with that one like it very clearly was...

...like a team trying to figure out how can we communicate something which was the cloud and was not really easy to understand into something that was and people love being able to fill out basically bars and they understand that a rocketship needs to go up. Those are all basic things that we as humans already knew and I think they did a really brilliant job at bringing that in. Cool. So that's big example that most would be familiar with. Can you think about some maybe lesser known good growth examples that you've either been a part of or heard of? Yeah, hi, I feel like I talked about the Celt one all the time, so I'll just like breeze through that one. And there's another one that I think is brilliant, but with tilt, for instance. We were payments APP, easy way to send request and split payments between friends and we grew it almost exclusively, especially at the beginning, through colleges, college and university students started out in the states and when we came to Canada we realized that we couldn't grow in the same way, where we couldn't grow through frats and Sorority as which we did in the states, and instead we really had to focus on how are we solving more frequent use cases with different audience types. So we went after student organizers, your heads of households, your friends that are always rallying you to go out or get dinner, your you know, type a hold the group together type of friend, and that's way harder to target online than it is to be like frat member or soriady member. And I think one of the things that we did brilliantly there was beyond our ambassador program which basically productize referrals for us, but we launched send and request money, which was basically interact e transfer using credit cards, so you get points to which students loved. And the way that we did that one was we had this campaign where it was called Dave is the worst. It personified the worst aspects of all of our friends without ousting any of them. So it would quickly talk about meet Dave. Dave is the worst. He never pays for his share at the Internet but he's always streaming. Make Day pay and a bunch of scenarios like that, which were not as sexy as the fun parties down in the states, but we're actual use cases that help our product row. So we were explaining what the product did in really relatable, very frequent use cases. It was students and really simple CTA Make Day pay. So people would click that, they would look up Dave unsend requests, so they would download and actually look up this fake person that we made and he would pay them back and it would be this instant cycle. It was brilliant in the sense because it didn't just get people to sign up for something, it actually got them to use the product and then they would have money waiting for them. So naturally would set off all the other triggers for them to set up there, direct deposit etc. And then if they didn't, the money would come back to us. So it ended up becoming also super cost effective for US and ended up killing our actual inapperferral program interesting. So Dave actually paid them. They got real dollars from going to the process of geting David pays. Actually we also experimented with a button on...

...that that said publicly Sham Dave instead of share, and you'd be surprised by how many people will click a button just because of curiosity. Right, yeah, right, that's awesome. So if we got in the next level here. So you were part of the team when they were going live in the states. You had a bunch of learnings. They say we're going to go to Canada. Great, we've got a Canadian woman on the team. She's going to help us out. She must go to the Canadian market. You what ad that first meeting? Like how did you figure out to do that? Like what what's the thinking process to figure out how to come up with that campaign? So I think, like what was really awesome about tilt was we had such an amazing country manager and such an amazing like there was a beginning team that was led by Sarah Stockdale, who's an amazing growth leader out in Toronto and was my very first like, I think, super strong mentor when I was in university and especially coming out now. She's an amazing person to look up and look up to. But I think they had this really interesting opportunity with till, where it actually till it coming to Canada. Came from our country manager, him, who is now the GM at check out fifty one, and he messaged James, was the CEO of tilt, and said, Hey, I'm looking to raise money for the ski trip. I believe that I'm going with my friends when you come to Canada. And it turned into those large conversation about why aren't you guys here? Why don't we have anything like this, and he ended up spearheading that and he ended up starting to build out what was basically a test concept out here and ended up becoming the fastest growing arm up tilt because of the natural frequency. Like we weren't going after big parties that happen maybe once a month. We were going after every day types of types of transactions like paying someone back for coffee it, spending dinner, spending a taxi, because at the time Uber Split wasn't a thing, but I thought that was really great. But kind of being on that team and when we actually had to think more interestingly enough, had to break off from some of the learnings that we had from the American team, was there came a moment in our growth where we kind of sat down as a Canadian team and realize that we weren't going to grow like our big brother did, basically, and it's an interesting moment where it's very similar to when you talked to your parents at one point when you're a little bit older and you realize that they don't know everything and it's awkward and you have this like gut feeling that you need to say something and you need to disagree publicly or you need to pivot a little bit and it takes a while, and that's exactly what happened with us. Like there's a while where we were doing things that we knew weren't going to hundred percent work because that's what we were told to do, and then it eventually broke off into like send a request money, for instance, was a feature that probably was never going to work in the states because of Edmo, but it was everything for our growth here and that came from like well over a year of pushing from our team,...

...getting feedback, dealing with our ambassadors, growing the channels that we knew like also helped with our other arms. So we had this strong pulse on who our customers weren't, what they wanted and we led with that data. So if we were to try to do this like case style. So you say you join the team. Yes, the team got allocated a budget for the launch. Presumably like there's some sort of resources available. Don't know what they were. You've got a certain team that's gonna making that success. Sure. So the first meeting, like let's get's getting nitty gritty. Did you? Did you say, like, okay, we're going to launch in Canada, the goal is to get x amount of Canadian users? I would say in this test, probably it was probably how many people are we going to get in order to prove that it's actually going to work here? And then of those people, like, how many of them are going to be, let's say, like students, or are they going to be outside of that? So what we had is, like we had a lot of any test that we're going to like we didn't know if we're going to be camps oriented like we were in the states. We didn't know what schools. We didn't know like how do you deal with the campus school of versus a city school? We started to do tests on should we double down on going into universities or should we start looking up elsewhere? And we started that as well, with like better example, maybe like later on, once we proved out with students, was we essentially tried to do ritual at one point using till it, which I don't think that many people know that we tried, because clearly it wasn't very successful, and we partnered actually with a lot of companies here in London, which is interesting, including there is like a little yogurt shop down the street that I remember used to Troublesho for. But basically we had x amount of money. We set a goal of we wanted to get x amount of vendors and we wanted to increase their sales by x, and those were all things that we're looking for. The big metric at the beginning was can we actually get vendors on board? And we had we set time limits on that and that was really like, honestly, it's very similar to when you're first starting out that business and you're trying to do any proof of concept. You have a time limit, you have things that are not negotiable and you're trying to prove a point. And so are you. The team is presumably all together in the same room and you're like here's some red bull and some pizza, like this is brainstorm ideas, like how do you come up with here the things that we're going to test? Yeah, so that's actually very similar to how we were atilt. Th read bullet was like a lot of soil lent. Was Gross, but we'd actually sit in the small room in our loft style office and we only had one meeting room until Canada, and it's pretty funny when people think about that because of how big tilted grown and our office just like we just didn't but we would sit in this room probably more frequently than once a quarter because of a house we were growing, and we would actually just like talk through everything. Everybody would sit down, we...

...would brain dump absolutely everything that was going on, put everything out on sticky notes, on basically anything to get out of our head, and then we would start to basically triage like what are the things that are add ons too stuff that we already do? What are big bets that we haven't tried? What are things that are very obviously duds? And we would start to go through that and sometimes we would get into like task groups of like here's a big bet, we're going to put a few people on this, try it, and other times we'd have people being like Oh, I know how to do x thing really, really fast, I'm going to take all these things, you just run out of the room and you start doing it. And who who moderated that? Who controlled the crowd? A lot of times it would always be set like one person probably sit down and be like, guys, we need to talk, and that person would probably take the helm at the beginning. But it was really collaborative, honestly, in a lot of cases. And one of the reasons why I loved being in a start up outside of school was I did didn't feel like age was anything. My Dad says all the time, mainly because he's old, but he'll say age is just a number, and I didn't really believe it until being in an industry that is honestly, like so driven and so like amazing for young minded people who are ready to speak their perspectives and really want to own that. And in all those scenarios they were super collaborative like it. Obviously I'd probably start off as a newer ad being a little bit more quiet and just like coming in with my own like details, of my own opinions on things that people that already put out. But six months in, at that point I'm like the one being like hey, guys, I want you guys to come sit in a room with me, and that's honestly cut of some of the beauty that comes along with fast growing and sometimes hard problems. Cool, cool, those dead those details are helpful. I just always trying to envision like, okay, how how did these actually you we came up with this idea for this great thing, but like what actually happened? There's like a surprising amount of lack of structure and a lot of these things, because structure tends to bind a lot of growth. It tends to really bog down things and we as humans, I feel, and a lot of times really try to put ourselves into little boxes. We like to organize. It's reason why there's huge stores dedicated to Jess Organization, and I think there's room for that, but in a lot of cases, like it's a lot more abstract. Trying to solve these growth problems is basically like trying to not just like put things together that have come in a box, but you're like gathering the materials and you are building these components and then you're figuring out what tools will put them together. Cool. So, if there were someone that wanted to get started, where would I go? Do you have any really like amazing could be for each of the tears, beginner, intermediate, expert, places to go, people to meet, books to read, blogs, to follow whatever. Like. Where would I even start? Yeah, I'm a huge fan of like Brian Belfour and Andrew Chen and their work with reforge. Casey winters is also...

...a huge contributor to that. They're all amazing growth leaders. X Pinterest, ex Uber and x hub spot, and I would definitely recommend following reforgecom. Their blog there is great. They also, if you are a young professional in your company, will sponsor you. They do this amazing educational program. I've gone through it. I know a ton of leaders that have to. It's great. Other things that I would also recommend is like, if you, let's say, want to practice being a growth leader and a lot of those things, like, try your own little start up like, and I don't mean like, legitimize yourself, incorporate and do all the bits. It's like, Hey, if you want to figure out how does the company sell merchandise? Sell Merchandise, like if you want to figure out, okay, how does someone grown up like, why don't you throw something up on and envision and get your friends to go through it and figure out. Okay, like, what did I do wrong? Or can I even mimic something that that I use on an everyday basis? Those as the thoughts, as thought exercises. Don't need to be started just because you have a job or just because gave a task. You can just do it. Yeah. So why I gravitate often to those Amazon style businesses? Because if you're if you just want to test something out, because literally, I'm looking at our water bottles in front of us, you could say, all right, I'm I'm moving to start a water bottle company. Let's pick a way that I could differentiate. Maybe I have flashy colors and it keeps the water colder longer than everybody else. Maybe it doesn't, but I can say that. Let's go through sourcing it, positioning it, marketing it, testing a bunch of channels, like what you would learn from a water bottle company that maybe sells a hundred dollars and water bottles at the end of the day, like that learning is just so amazing. So you're saying just go do it hundred percent. Like I think the learning is that you get from figuring out the questions that you don't immediately think about until you have to solve them, like those are the ones that make for such stronger stories a way better learning experience as well. Like a good example with whether it's water bottles, whether I always use like the shop offy example of like starter, shopify, store dropship stuff like it's an easy way of just like testing proof of concept. Or I was reading this and spoken to Justin Mars before, is the author of traction, and one of the things that he always preaches is like, if you want to figure out will people buy or will people believe in your product? And and I think you mentioned this a few times, but will someone actually put their money where their mouth is if they say that your product is great? Is Why don't you start a landing page for a product that doesn't exist yet and see if you can get sign ups for Presale or can they put down like a base level order your own little kickstarter, if you will? It's always an easy example of something that you should be able to have in your tool box and you should be able to know how to do that's awesome. Last few here advice you'd give your, Call It, twenty year old self buck up and share a perspective earlier. Just because you don't see yourself as someone...

...who can make the most, I would say, pristine model in Excel does not mean that you won't be able to make some of the best suggestions for them. Moving forward, own your background and understand what are the things that you learned from some of the stuff that might seem weird to other people, because it's going to be unique to you and that's going to craft the better parts of your story and probably always will, like playing in a band, for example. Yes, hundred percent awesome. Last thing I'll ask is, since this goes out to a pretty big community, is there any way that the community can help you? What are you what are you working on right now? What do you focused on? What are your priorities and if there's anybody listening in my want to in a hand. How can we help? Absolutely so. I think a lot of my focus right now is trying to figure out how I can really scale this community for Growtho, trying to connect more leaders with honestly like students and mentees and people who are trying to learn, create a stronger men like mentor network, because I was really fortunate to find someone amazing out of the gate and not everyone is and not everyone is also like the type of person who wants to reach out or feels comfortable doing that. So would love to talk to anybody who's in the text base, in the growth space founder or anyone that's just interested in getting involved and who also is interested in scaling a community like this out in Toronto. Cool, and best way to find that is through the growth to your website. Where do they find you online? Well, you can find me on will growth TORONTOCOM, or on Linkedin you can find me under Emmalinetto, and that's Lon Etto, not e at the beginning. Yeah, awesome, that's great. We could go on for a long time and I think maybe the future we will. It's there's a probably a few opportunities to tackle some case studies, of like if you and I were to white board out how would we tackle starting an idea or a concept? That might make for a fun follow up, but I will see that for another day. Thank you for joining us. I appreciate you spending some time. Thanks so much. Thanks you've been listening to the Ivy Entrepreneur podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit IV dot c a forward slash entrepreneurship. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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