The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

7. How to Grow your Start-up with GrowthTO Founder Emily Lonetto

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week’s Ivey Entrepreneur podcast features Emily Lonetto, HBA’16, founder of GrowthTO, the largest community of growth and product practitioners in Canada.

Emily’s career ambitions have ranged from Rockstar (she literally sang in an alternative rock band in Toronto), to promoter, to entrepreneur and growth marketer.  Her experiences on the growth team at Tilt (acquired at AirBnB) kick-started her career in growth, and she has since held positions at numerous high profile start-ups and scale-ups such as PartnerStack, Clio, and Voiceflow. 

In this episode, Emily helps us understand what growth really is, how to spot talent for your growth team, and uncovers the tactics behind several well-executed growth initiatives that she has participated in.

You're listening to the IVIENTRENORpodcast from the Pierre L, Moriset Institute, Foronto Preneurship at theIvy Business School. In this series I be entrepreneur an IV faculty member,Eric Janson Woll anchor the session here with Emily Linetto from grotioemily good to have you on the pagast thanks fo're having me no problem, it'salways nice to have not going to say recent alumni, but I always like totalk about degrees of separation and I feel, like Youre degrees, of separationfrom the current group of students here at Ivis, so small that you're veryrelatable. So thanks for coming back Yeanno problem, it's always so weirdand also great to come back and kind of see how things have changed. So thanksfaving me have they changed. I would say yeah a little bit slightlydifferent facilities. You know the microwave wasn't where I thought it wasgoing to be, but H, yeah. No, it's interesting tosee like the Newfaces, the new realm of Ivy sweaters from I the hallway. Ofcourse the swag is Changd the building Sha. Yet the swagger of the VILTWAGGERhas yeahgod so you're spending a lot of time. On growth to and in the growthspace Um, I don't, I don't Wantta beat a dead horse, so we don't need todefine like what is growth, but maybe just describe a little bit the projectsthat you're working on related to Groth Theo right now. What is thatorgainzation all about yeah, so grocio actually was an organization that Istarted. I would say out of my second job out of school, when I was coming inas the first girth person first marketer, first female as well as well,someone outside of the Corpe group out o start up and was trying to come inand figure out. How can I work with a team? That's never worked with thegrowth team before after coming out of a job where I was previously on agrowth team that was pretty established at a company called tilt andestablishing grostio really came from kind of conversations like this. Whereconnecting with people. I just wanted to figure out. What did people knowthat I just didn't 'cause, you can't grow even as like a person if you'renot exploring outside of that, and what started off as a ridiculous short listof like fifty growth leaders in Toronto and in North America quickly turnedinto basically like a mutual vent session amongst growth leaders tryingto figure out. How can you not only grow the startups that you're in, butalso your connections, your own learnings and connect with people thatwere going through the same things, so it started off informally, with coffeesturned into about two hundred members acrossToronto, and now in last year, we've scaled it from merging, as well asgrowing our own community to now two thousand five hundred membersacrossnorth America- that is fantastic, so often a lot of younger, a younger but it'. Twentysomething students that I'me interacting with they don't know ere, not familiar withthe language of start up. So you know...

SDR AE customer success, growth. Theydon't really know what it is. So, let's not go textbook definition, but likewhat? What would someone who's graduating from Ivy do in a growth role?What is the actual work of a growth person what's kind of funny to me? Isthat, like growth in a lot of ways is actually so similar to a lot of thestuff that we do in Ivy, at least like from from a perspective infoundationalstandpoint like what growth really is. Is You are sitting at the intersect ofdifferent departments, you're looking holistically out of company and tryingto figure out what are the areas tha? You can make a big impact on thecompany, so often growth will sit in between marketing product and salessometimes will sit under one of those departments, but for the most part, whyI say it's actually kind of similar to some of the stuff that we apply here isreally what students can expect going into. A role is you're going in you'reanalyzing you're inalyzing, the componints in in front of you. What arethe resources that you have or the goals of that company or where you'like to go your establishing constraints, you're putting in whatmeasures for success you're going for and you're coming up with the plan, Ioften actually think about it. A lot like how I used to approach ivy exams,where you can put in like seventy five kids in a singlesection and you're, going to get seventy five different answers and in aGros roll you're, pushing your answer forward, rather than just giving thatand hoping that someone chooses it cool so say, I'm one man show or me and a partnerstarting a business, and I think I want to we've got some sort of minimumvilproduct that we put upt there interesting traction. Maybe some peopleare interested EGOT, some a couple of users? How do I make the decisionbetween investing in marketing rolls or sales roles or growth roles like who?Who should I be hiring at what stage? So there's a lot unpack there, but I think a good way of alwayslooking at. It is especially early on you're looking for people who aremultifacited, who are able to really take a look at of the problems and ofthe product that you currently have like. What is the biggest area ofimpact that you can have? Do you need more customers, so, in this case of thecustomers that you have early traction with how many of them are staying, howmany of them love the product have any of them? Have you ven spoken to sobefore you even think about hiring New People? It's how many of your existingcustomers have you engaged with how many of them are from your let's say:preexisting relationships versus ones that ave organically or, let's sayoutside of your network, have joined often times. I think the mistake thatearly stage startups will do as they'll hire someone specifically to fill X,roll right at the beginning, assuming that the product is at a certain pointwhere you have product market fit, which is a little bit beyond having aminimum viable product and what that...

...means is instead of having somethingthat just functions so like a minimum, a minimum vviable product willbasically be something Ha. It least serves a purpose, and you can do somebasic testing on versus product market fit, so does that product actually fitwith the audience that you're going after when you find a base level ofthat? That's when I would always recommend starting to look for someonereally focused on growth before that you want to look for someone who isprobably growthminded but is able to do maybe some of those other silod works.So you're, saying beyond m VP you've found some initial product market fit o.You said earlier you're selling to people beyond your immediate network orreferral. There are people organically starting to find your product is there,and this is so hard to overgeneralize. But if you had to overengineer it,could you give an idea of that? What like revenue stages? That is this? Doyou see pre like seed stage companies, hiringgrowth roles, or is it typically after someone's done a raise where they'relike wow? Now there are expectations to grow at a certain rate. We need notmean to now highrate groth person. I would say that you definitely havegrowthminded leaders that come in at seed. Those are people wha, re sittingthe foundation for that. So, like growth is really data heavy. It'sreally centric on understanding the product, Unertang, the consumer, beingable to have access to the information, often at seed stage. You want someonewho's going to co in and actually set up all the infrastructure for thatthey'll probably be the person who understands how to use it, but that's aslightly different skill set than going out an let's say: Hiring a growthcoordinator, groth manager, who maybe becoming in to optimize a channel.That's pre existing M an. I think that those types of hirers tend to typicallycome in series, a or maybe seed round. So the the more specific growth hireshappen at a later stage, but the more broad higher could happen relativelyearly. Oh absolutely, and I think, there's never too early of a stage tohave somebody who is grosth minded coming in and setting that challengesitting that foundation, because if you get someone, that's like that at thebeginning, it's it's contagious and you want every department to be thinkingabout that at all times. So you you've talked about the role of a Swiss armyknife. So I'm not gon t I'm not going to debate it, but let's have adiscussion around it, because there are there's always a role for a Swiss armyknife in the beginning. There's this period of trashing you've got to get abunch of things. Set Up, you've got Ta, you're learning, so someone that coulddo a bunch of different things as good. I've found that overtime, the need for a multi purposeperson wanes, and then you need to get specific people in those roles. Ihaven't yet effectively. transitionist WISS army knife into a more senior role. That made be totally myown fault. So do you always nee this Wis Arma orther stages, where so starvNife is more valuable than other stadius see. I think that it's reallydependent like. I think there are some...

...people who are really damn good atscalling, a company from like series a to series B or from B to C, and thenthere are people who come in and later stage an they really own in thedevelopment of Department or silo. I think that I would say, as someone whoidentifies probably as like a sosarmy knife and has had success in trying tobuild out like teams and also train other people to develop other types oftools outside of what would be their knifes, so their cors skillsite, Iwould say, maybe at the beginning, there's a little bit more freedom and,like you, are looking for people who maybe like to navigate the chaos andthey use the fact that they're sosarmy enough to do that. Those people willprobably outgrow or be outgrown by the company at a certain point, the peoplethat are able to like pull out those tools when needed, but still understandwhat their core purpose are. I think those ones become extremelystrongleaders because they are able to deeply empathize with things outside oftheir scope, which sometimes might be necessary, as the company really doesgo into the next phase of growth. So how would you identify given that somepeople may not even know that theyre GR potential growth person? How would you,as a company, identify someone who might have that talent? They may nothave labelled themselves as a growth person, but you might see you'relooking to hire. How could you identify someone that has early signals thatthey would be successful at a growth role are ther traits? I think thatthey're definitely like there're some easier to spot traits versus questionsthat I like to ask to kind of get down to it. The easier spot ones are oftenentprenoureal type people tend to be really good at growth. I love talkingto faild entrepreneurs to be honest when it comes to trying to figure outwho would be good and that mindset, because they were able to makesomething from nothing and even if it didn't succeed that parched so hard andrequires so much mental capacity and emotional strain that a lot of peoplethat come in and have tools set up for them aren't used to, and it's deeplyit's so important to be able to not only empathize with that but kind ofget into the mindstead of that, because, often with growth you're, not justoptimizing channels or campaigns or tools that are there, but you're. Also,building and you're challenging the stathe status quo, which is actuallyvery similar to early stage ontrepernorship other things that Ithink are really good signs when you're talking to someone is I'll, often givethem like a pretty simple question, like let's say this is like a sillyexample 'cause. I rarely am trying to solve this problem, but let's say youstart a blog and we decide that we want to get let's say a hundred subscribers in the next likethirty days, which is like maybe aggressive for some types of companies.I would ask how to do that, and most people would be able to give me somepretty basic answers of the top, but...

...you keep drilling in so, let's sayafter they say the basic things being like I'm going to write a few post, I'mgoing Ta promote them through paid or the kind of typical song and dancethere. You would come back and be like okay. Well, you got fifteen now whatand you keep doing that and you keep squeezing to see what happens whenthey're in a crunch and they have a deadline and they don't know howthey're going to hit it and see if they ask questions see how crafty they getand giving them those tasks or even sometimes asking okay like what companydo you love? Why do you love it? Why is it growing to you cool like what wouldyou change about it? How could you make it better and keep digging in on that,because often it's not the first question that you ask that identifieswhether or not someone is able to be scrappy and think through thoseproblems. It's often like the fifth or sixth, and I also love when people justsay they don't know and Sart to ask questions 'cause, that's a huge componeint, the job as well. When you're hiring someone in that role, is it doyou ever assign them tasks like take away to ask, or is it all interviews inthe room? I've never personally assigned something like crazy, like forthe most part I'll be like. Come in prepared to like talk about x, 'cause,I like to think through, like if I was genuinely in a room with this personand we're trying to solve a problem. How are they going to do that? I loveseeing people wipeboard out problems because I genualely just want to knowhow does your mind work like? How are you going to contribute to an activeconversation when a lot of us are probably going to be aligned onproblems, but well vary base on our perspectives and very based on what arethe components that each one of us are going to carry out in order to makethat happen? I have, however, like gone through interview processes where Imyself has put, have put together presentations or have done tasks, andone of the things that I I would recommend if there is somebody who isinterested in growth, is like you're, typically looking for somebody who willchallenge the status quo or who is thinking slightly differently based onthe information, that's at hand and often when I've seen takeaway kind ofprojects or examsis they'll, give you the same information. They give a lotof people in a department and it's kind of your job to sit there and be likelet's say: If they're like what channel? Would you double down on next quarterlike I dare you to say that you would try something new and explain why youwould try that instead of doubling down or situations like that, I'vepersonally done in the past cool? Can you think through just to Rootthiss, insomething practical or tangible? So I thinkpeople have a decent idea of what growth is and the types of people thatare successful at in those roles. Can you talk to some example? Some reallygood growth related examples that either you've been a part of or scene, and they can be superfamous andpopular, or maybe some under the radar things that people may not have heardof before I'll start with, like probably the most like famous examplesof it, just to kind of like root it, but droboxs inrbane beer, probably likeon the top of the list in terms of...

...amazing growth campaigns, the first onebeing dropboxes referral program, arguebly one of the first sast productsto absolutely nail preferral programs and the poor people that have tried tocopy them since something sometimes it just doesn't work again. But got meThouh. So that program was the sign up to G, get a friend to sign up to getmore space, Roa, yeah and what's brilliant about that, is they didn't?Do it in a way where it felt transactional to the point where youdidn't feel shady for getting a kickback for getting a friend on board.Most people probably didn't even know what storage was online at that time,because a lot of people had external hard drives and dropboxwas trying topitch for cloud storage, and they did it in a way that was so visual as well,where basically youould hit their landing page. It would get you to signup and it showed basically, this rocket ship that was trying to take off andyou were at xpercentage when you first started and you would gain, I guess,further attraction as you started, to invite people and at each level you'dget x amount of gigabies for free and that part was really great, but theyalso gave away inkind rewards. So, instead of focusing on monetary, theywere focusing on the storage, the actual product that they were givingand they were only giving more of their product to the people who actuallyhelped grow their product, which is also pretty brilliant. So you ended uphaving hundreds of students referring other students who would care about itand wanted to Max out how much storage they would have and get the same friendto do the same thing, and it resulted in a crazy amount of growth in a smallperiod of time. You talked about the element of design there. The rocketship plaunching. It just made me think of the Cross functional component of this roleso like they would have in order for dropbuxs to execute that campaign likewhat you live in that like a higher tex ass world. Now, what teams would beinvolved in a campaign like that, so I'm extremely biased and think designedthinking should be put into absolutely everything. 'cause one of the mostuniversal languages out there that doesn't need to be translated as design,and we talk about that with metrocs who talk about that with math and thosetypes of situations, but really the first thing that people notice aboutany product is what does it look like? How does it feel? What does it make mefeel and those often don't come from reading and they don't come fromsomeone explaining. It will come from a gut instinct reaction and that's alldesigned thinking an can be controlled. I think, with a program like droboxthere's like a brilliant article on first round on growth, designersdrawbox has a crazy team for that that I would highly recommend reading foranybody who's interested in that space, but I would definitely think yourdesign growsh team would be in there. Typically on growth, temes you'll havea growth analyst Hou'll have a growth pm as well a grorth marketer, and Ithink with that one like it very...

...clearly was like a team trying tofigure out. How can we communicate something which was the cloud and wasnot really easy to understand into something that was, and people love being able to fill outbasically bars, and they understand that a rockership needs to go up. Thoseare all basic things that Weis humans already knew, and I think they did areally brilliant job at bringing that in cool. So that's big example thatmost would be familiar with. Can you think about some, maybe lesser known,good growth, examples that you've either been a part overheard of Yeah Um? I I feel, like I talk about this teltone, all the time so ill, just like breeze through that one and there'sanother one that I think is brilliant, but with tilt, for instance, we werepayments at easy way to send requests and spit payments between friends, andwe grew almost exclusively, especially at the beginning. Through colleges,Cullton University students started out in the states, some Wene came to Canada.We realized that we couldn't grow in the same way where we couldn't growthrough frats and Sororities, which we did in the states and NSTEAD. We reallyhad to focus on. How are we solving more frequent use cases with differentaudience types? So we went after student organizers, your heads ofhouseholds, your friends that are always rallying you to go out or getdinner you'r. You know type A hold the group together type of friend andthat's way harder to target online than it is to be like Frat, member or sorEmember, and I think one of the things that we did brilliantly. There wasbeyond a ambassador program which basically proditized referrals for us,but we launchd send and request money which was basically intract, youtransfer using credit cards, so you get points to which students loved and the way that we did that one was. Wehad this campaign where it was called Davis, the worst it personified theworst aspects of all of our friends without ousting any of them. So itwould quickly talk about meet Dave Davis, the worst he never pays for hisshare the Internet, but he's always streaming makeday Fay and a bunch ofscenarios like that which were not as sexy as the fun parties down in thestates, but we're actual use cases that help our productrow. So we ereexplaining what the product ded in really relatable very frequent usecases. It was students and really simple CTA Makeday pay, so people ouldclick that they would look up. Dave unsend requests, so they would downloadand actually look up this fake person that we made and he would pay them backand it would be this instant cycle. It was brilliant in the sense because itdidn't just get people to sign up for something, it actually got them to usethe product, and then they would have money waiting for them, so naturallywould set off all the other triggers for them to set up their direct deposit,etcetera and then, if they didn't, the money would come back to us so didnt itbecoming also supercost effective for us and ended up killing our actualinapopherral program, O interesting sodeve actually paid them. They gotreal dollars from going tough, the process ecetting dutyesactly. We alsoexperimented with a button on that.

That said, publicly, shame Dave insteadof share, and you be surprised by how many people will click a button. Justbecause of curiosity, that's awesome! So if we got in thenext level here, so you were part of the team when they were going live inthe states, you had a bunch of learnings, they say we're going to goto Canada. Great we've got a Canadian woman on the team she's going to helpus out. She must o over the Canadian market you. What are that first meetinglike how did you figure out to do that like what? What's thethinking process, to figure out how to come up with that campaign? So I think,like what was really awesome about telt was we had such an amazing countrymanager and such an amazing like there was a beginning team that was led bySara Stockdale who's, an amazing growth leader out in Toronto, and was my veryfirst like I think, Super Strong Mentor when I was in university and especiallycoming out now she's an amazing person to look up and look up to, but I thinkthey had this really interesting opportunity with Ti weare it actuallytill it coming to. Canada came from our country manager Tim, who is now the GMat check out. Fifty one and he messaged James, was the CEO of tiltand said: Hey, I'm looking to raise money for the ski trip. I believe thatI'm going with my friends. When do you come to Canada and it turned into thoselarge conversation about? Why aren't you guys here? Why don't we haveanything like this and he ended up sperheading that and he ended upstarting to build out what was basically a test concept out here andended up becoming the fastest growing arm of tl because of the naturalfrequency like we weren't going after big parties that happened. Maybe, oncea month we were going after everyday types: types of transactions likepaying someone back for coffee, spinding dinner, spinding, a taxiecause at the time. OOBER SPLIIT wasn't a thing, but I thought that was really great butkind of being on that team and when we actually had to think more.Interestingly enough had to break off from some of the learnings that we hadfrom the American team. was there came a moment in our growth, where we kindof sat down as a Canadian team and realized that we weren't going to growlike our big brother did basically and it it's an interesting moment where svery similar to when you talk to your parents at one point when Youw're alittle bit older and you realize that they don't know everything and it'sawkward. And you have this like gut feeling that youneed to say something and you need to disagree publicly or you need to Pivita little bit and it takes a while and that's exactly what happened with us.Like there's a while, where we were doing things that we knew weren't goinga hundred percent work, because that's what we were told to do and then iteventually broke off into like Sende request. Money, for instance, was thefeature that probably was never going to work in the states 'cause of Venmo.But it was everything for our growth here and that came from like well overa year of pushing from our team getting...

...feedback dealing with our ambassaorsgrowing the channels that we knew like also helped with our other arms. So wehad this strong pulse on who our customers were in what they wanted andwe led with that data. So if we were to try to do this like casestyle, so yousay you joined the team. Yes, the team got allocated a budget for the launch,presumably like there's some sort of resources available, don't know whatthey were. You've got a certain team ts. Can I making that success sure so? Thefirst meeting like let's get JS get Aity g. Did you did you say like okay,we're going to launch in Canada? The goal is to get x amount of Canadianusers. I would say N in this test, probablyyeah. It was probably how many people are we going to get inorder to prove that it's actually no work here and then of those people likehow many of them are going to be, let's say like students or are they going tobe outside of that? So what we had is like. We had a lot of mini tests thatwe're going too. Like we didn't know. If we were going to be camps, orientedlike we were in the states, we didn't know what schools we didn't know like.How do you deal with a CAMPA school versus he city school? We started to dotests on. Should we double down on going into universities, or should westart looking up elsewhere, and we started that as well with like a betterexample, maybe like later on, once we proved out with students, was weessentially try to do ritual at one point using twhich? I don't think thatmany people know that we tried, because clearly it wasn't very successful andwe partnered actually with a lot of companies here in London, which isinteresting, including there is like a little yogart shop down the street thatI rember I used to trouble shoot for, but uh. Basically, we had x amount of money. Weset a goal that we wanted to get x amount of vendors and we wanted toincrease their sales by CX, and those were all things that were looking forthe big metric at the beginning was: Can we actually get venders on boardand we had we set time limits on that, and that was really like honestly, it'svery similar to when you're first starting out that business and you'retrying to do any prooful concept. You have a time limit. You have things thatare not negotiable and you're, trying to prove a point, and so are you. Theteam is presumably altogether in the same room and you're like here's, someRed Bowl, ands one pizza like rainstor ideas like how do you come up with here,the things that we're going to test yeah? So that's actually very similarto how we were. I told Minos, thred Bollet was like a lot of Soilin. It wasgross, but WEU'd actually sit in the smallroom in our loftstyle office and we only had one meeting room into Canadaand it's pretty funny when people think about that because of how big Til hadgrown and our office just like we just didn't, but we would sit in this room probablymore frequently than once a quarter because of ow house. We were growingand we would actually just like talk through everything. Everybody would sitdown. We would brain dump absolutely...

...everything that was going on, puteverything out on sticky notes on basically anything to get out of ourhead and then we would start to basically triose like what are thethings that are adons, the stuff that we already do.What are big bets that we haven't tried? What are things that are very obviouslyduds, and we would start to go through that, and sometimes we would get intolike task groups of like here's. A big bet we're going to put a few people onthis. Try IT and other times we'd have people being like. Oh, I know how to dox thing really really fast. I'm going to take all these things and you justrun out of the room, and you start doing it and who, who moderated thatwho controlled the crowd a lot of times it would always be set like one personwould probably sit down and be like guys. We need to talk and that personwould probably take the helme at the beginning, but it was reallycollaborative honestly in a lot of case, as one of the reasons why I loved beingoin to start up outside of school was, I didn't feel like age was anything mydad says is all the time main because he's old but he'll say ages, just anumber, and I didn't really believe it until being in an industry that ishonestly like so driven and so like amazing. For young minded people whoare ready to speak their perspectives and really want to own that, and in allthose scenareos, they were super collaberative, like obviously I'dprobably start off as a newer ad being a little bit more quiet and just likecoming in with my own, like details and my own opinions on things that peoplethat areay put out but six months in at that point, I'm like the one meing likeHay guys. I want you guys to come, sit in a room with me and that's honestly ksome of the beauty that comes along with fast growing and sometimes hardproblems, cool Col, those yea. Those details are helpful. I just alwaystrying to envision like okay, how how did thes? Actually we came up with hisidea for this great thing, but like what actually happd there's like asurprising amount of lack of structure and a lot of these things, 'causestructure tends to bind a lot of growth. It tends to really bog down things andwe as humans. I feel, and a lot of times really try to put ourselves intolittle boxes. We like to organize. So reason why there's huge storesdedicated to jess organization- and I think, there's room for that, but in alot of cases like it's a lot more abstract trying to solve these growthproblems is basically like trying to not just like put things together thathave come in O box, but you're like gathering the materials and you arebuilding these components and ten you're figuring out what tools will putthem together cool. So if there were someone that wanted to get started,where would I go? Do you have any really, like amazing could be for eachof the tears beginner intermediate expert places to go people to meetbooks to read blogs to follow whatever like? Where would I even start yeah,I'm a huge fan of like Brian Balfor and Andewten, andtheir work with reeforge casy. Winters...

...is also huge contributor to that.They're. All amazing growth leaders, x, Pintras, Uber and x hub spot, and Iwould definitely recommend following reforge otcom their blog. There isgreat they also. If you are a young professional and your company willsponsor you. They do this amazing educational program. I've gone throughit. I know a tennel leaders that have two it's great other things that Iwould also recommend is like, if you let's say, want to practice being agrossh leader in a lot of those things like try, your own little start up like,and I don't mean like legintimize yourself, incorporate and do all thethats it's like hey. If you want to figure out, how does the company sellmerchandise sell merchandise like if you want to figure out okay? How doessomeone growing up like why? Don't you throw something up on envision and getyour friends to go through it and figure out? Okay, like what did I dowrong, or can I even mimic something that I use on an everyday basis cas tethe thoughts, a thought exercises? Don't need to be started just becauseyou have a job or just eceive a task. You can just do it yeah, so I gravitateoften to those Amazon style businesses, because, if you're, if you just want totest something out eas, literally I'm looking at our water bottles in frontof us, you could say all right, I'Mi'm owning to start a water bottle company.Let's pick a way that I can differentiate. Maybe I have flashycolors and it keeps the water colder longer than everybody else. Maybe itdoesn't, but I can say that Um, let's go through sourcinggit positioning itmarketing it testing a bunch of channels like what you would learn froma water bottle company that maybe sells a hundred dollars and water bottles atthe end of the day like that, learning is just so amazing, so Youryouresayinjust go. Do it hundred percent, like I think the learnings that you getfrom figuring out the questions that you don't immediately think about untilyou have to solve them, like those are the ones that make for such strongerstories away. Better learning experience as well like a good examplewith whether it's water bottles, whether I always use like the shopafyexample of like Starta Shop, a Fi store, dropship stuff Li e. it's an easy wayof just like testing proof of concept, or I was reading this and spoken toJustin ars before as the author of traction and one of the things that healways preaches is like. If you want to figure out, whellpeople buy or will people believe in your product, and I think you mentionthis a few times, but well someone actually put their money where theirmouth is. If they say that your procuct is great, is why don't you start alanding page for a product that doesn't exist yet and see if you can getsignups for precell, or can they put down like a base level order, your ownlittle kickstarter? If you will always an easy example of something that youshould be able to Havin your toll box, and you should be able to know how todo it's awesome. Last few year, advice you'd, give your call it twenty year,oldself buck up and Sherry perspective earlier. Just because you don't see yourself assomeone who can make thee most, I would...

...say, pristine model in Exele does notmean that you won't be able to make some of the best suggestions for them.Moving forward own your background and understand what of the things that youlearned from some of the stuff that might seem weird to other people,because it's going to be unique to you and that's going to craft the betterparts of your story and probably always well like plaing the ban Pozum, yeshundred percent osesome th last thing Il ask is, since thisgoes Oue to a pretty big community. Is there any way that the community canhelp you? What are you what you' working on right now, what o e youfocused on? What are your priorities, and if there's anybody listening in mywanal in a hand, how can we help absolutely so I think a lot of my focusright now is trying to figure out how I can really scale this community forGrothio trying to connect more leaders with honestly, like students and Mantisand people who are trying to learn create a strongerment like ment ornetwork 'cause. I was really fortunate to find someone amazing out of the gateand not everyone is and not. Everyone is also like the type of person whowants to reach out or feels comfortable doing that so would love to talk toanybody who's in the textface in the gros space founder or anyone, that'sjust interested in getting involved and who also is interested in scaling acommunity like this out in Tronto cool and best way to find that, as throughthe Groth Toa website, where do they find you online? Well, you can find meon WALCO TORONTO DOT COM or on Lincon. You can find me under Amelonetto andthat's Lon Ett, O not e at the beginning, assom, that's great! We could go on fora long time and I think maybe in the future we will it's there's probably afew opportunities to tackle some case studies of like if you and I were towhite board out. How would we handle starting an idea or a concept thatmight make for a fun follow up, but I will see that for another day. Thankyou for joining us. I appreciate you spitting sometime, pay. Some macitingsyou've been listening to the IBIONMIN or podcast to ensure that you nevermiss an episode subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player orvisit IV dotca forward, slash entreprernertia. Thank you so much forlistening until next t.

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