The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

8. Digital Marketing with 44 North Digital Marketing Founder Corey Shelson

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week’s Ivey Entrepreneur podcast features Corey Shelson, MBA '12, founder of 44 North Digital Marketing.

After serving with the Canadian Forces for nine years, Corey joined the Ivey MBA program and launched a start-up soon after. While his first foray into entrepreneurship didn’t pan out the way he hoped, the itch never left him.

In this episode, Corey talks about his journey, as well as the growing importance of marketing in an expanding digital landscape.

You're listening to the IVIENTRENERpodcast from the Pierre L, Moriset Institute, Forente Prenership at theIvy Business School in this series I veentrepreneur an Ivy Faculty member.Eric Janson will anchor the session cor thanks for sitting down and havinga conversation, peri good to see you. It is great to see you so I'm here withcore Selson from forty four north digital marketing, going to talk todayabout all things: Digital Marketing, relevance for start ups, but I wantedto start with you as an entrepreneur would love to know your story Ubernwhere the name came from. But how did you get into this business yeah so bitof a odd background, actually spent the first part of my life in the army andleft the army after a two or overseas, an two thousand and ten, and did my mbAiv that's kind of how our passive crossed this through the network duringIvy really enjoyed the auch prirnership stream. You know really good programand we're going to start up after IV. You know we transitioned Oto, that Itransition oute of it after basically burning all my cash up, Rit the I vProgram, great program, but it comes to the Price Tag, the start up world forabout a year. You know you Burne, through all your personal cash and Ihad to go get a job, so I went work in the Engineering Company for a couple ofyears learned a lot but really didn't feel like working in an engineeringcompany e rest of my life and at the time my wife was starting. This fitnessbusiness. She at the time was my girlfriend. She followed me out of town.You know left her teaching job here in London moved up to to Barry with me andshe started this Preinposao fitness business and she said: Hey you ow. Iwant to start this thing. How do you think we start getting customers tocome and you know she handled the fitness side? I handled the marketingside and basically taught myself everything from now. What is a facebookad to how to great landing pages? How to you know, convert traffic into intocustomers and it was really a sandbox, and I can say when you use your ownmoney to market your own business, you're much you're, very, very carefulwith your cash and how you use it. So now we had to bootstrap everything anlong story short. We started bringing a lot of people into this gym that shewas renting space out of. U She you know was bringing I wouldn't say morepeople than the gym was, but she was bringing a lot of. You know: trafficthrough the front door, and then we started doing business with that gymand then the owner of that gym owned another company and we started doingbusiness with that company. And then you know, this kind of you know hatethe word sidehouseold. But this you know in the evening business that I wasyou know helping my wife with quickly turned into a full time Gig. So I leftthe engineering job know put on my eggs in one basket with forty four north andthen you know kept going from there and the name, forty four north, where thatcome from it's t a latitude of bury. So I don't know a bit of play on words.You know army guy maps latitude. I think there were a few beers involvedand I came up with the name. It used to be actually like paromatrics businesssolution zinc, but it's really hard to sell business solutions like hey you,company, I' ve, got this. I do business solutions and, like H, consultantwhatever go away so you know started this h. You know digital marketing,business needed a brand came up with it. I like the number and uh yeah, that'swhere it came from. We moved the business from Berry Down to London whenmy wife got pregnant her family's here, and here we are three years later. Youknow I've got a a team now in London, six staff. You know that covers all themajor skill sets. You needed digital marketing company, and you know it'sgrown to the point where we're really servicing clients across you know thewhole Spectrama B to BNBTC, and you know really startied to making im forourselves in in certain industries. There's this rise right now of theseone call it one to five employee businesses is the ambition tog. Do youwant this like hundred or thousand person business, or what's the ambitionwith it? Hatd you want yeah, I don't. I don't think so. I mean more. Peopletypically equals more problems, not to...

...say that employes or problems mat anymeans. You N, our employees are the lifeblood of our business, but you canmake a lot of money and you can be very successful with you know five or sixtaff. There are companies here in London with fifty sixty seventy staffthat comes with certain pros and certain cons. I really like the smallbusiness scrappy type work. We've got a great team, very dedicated people. Ithink what I'm more interested in is is less about the number of people, butthis business model. How do we take what we, what we're doing as an agencyand start to productize certain things and be able to scale them that way? Ithink they're, more profitable business models than just trading time for moneyright and that's what we do righ now we trade time for money. It's great, youknow we're doing very well, but you know: We've got a few things in theworks that are less trading time for money and more. You know, productizingcertain services and you know being able to push them out out of very highquality, but with much less labor, and I think that's the direction that Ithink a lot of five or six person. Businesses can take and and scale, butjust in a different way, often thoseone or few few people. Businesses is a maybe m morever generalizing, but itseems like it's a consulting type business right, like you're you're, aperson who's got some knowledge. You trade your time for money, and it seemsto me that some who are getting B, you can do incredibly well doing that, butthose that are getting beyond that are figuring out a way to prodectize partsof it. They may not always they'll always be involved in some capacity,but it's not directly trading time for money anymore yeah I mean, I think thebiggest Ahamom for me was every time I used to do a salesproposal. It was custom right, people will come to me and say: Hey I've gotthis business xwhayi said, and I need help doing this. What sh? What should I do,and I often found myselfs on o on the phone trying to pitch the solutionright there and then without having taken the time to really understandtheir business and a? I think it discredited me. I think it discreditedour my abilities and it didn't come off as Genu as a genuine and and now peoplecall me- and I say the exact same thing: almost every single time is. I actuallyhave no idea what we should do for you and if I tried to tell you what weshould do on this phone call, then you should not choose me as a serviceprovider. But what I can tell you is that we have a process to figure outwhat you need and basically, if you get on the bus, Tet stop at the first stop,I'm going to take you through about eight stops and by the time we get tostop eight or nine we're going to have a really good plan and that plan'sgoing o be based on hard facts, data, competitive analysis and that plan'sgoing to then take us through the next year, and it's amazing how that'sshifted the way that I sell. But it's also shifted the way that we dobusiness is now our projects are starting in the same spot. We can trainour team and we have developed our team to go through a standard set ofprocesses and our clients are getting a ton of value and we haven't evenstarted executing it. It's still the research and analysis and planning, butnow they have a twelve month or eighteen month plan based on Hardfox.They know their budgets, they know where they're gon t invest their money.They know why and for a lot of people that have no idea what digitalmarketing is or why they should be doing it there's a massive amount ofinformation that they need to understand. Why and there's a hugeeducation aspect that goes into what we do and that initial planning researchphase and They'e Beng able to present them with the plan they go. Ah, I seewhy you do SSIO, or I see why you're going to use ads. I see why we need anew website. A lot of companies will just pitch yeah. We just build you anew website, but why why the heck? Would you just develop a new websiteunless, there's you know an seo justification or conversion ratejustification, and for the most part, I can't tell youthat in five minutes on the phone I need to look at you know: What are youcurrently doing? What's your website being used for what are your objectives?People will come to me and say: Hey. Can you run my adwords campaigns? Yeahsure we could, but I don't think it's a boat adwards. I think it's what thefact you want to some more windows or you want somewhat real estate or youwant to sell more shoes. Okay, well, it's O, maybe it'thought. Maybe Gooladwards is the wrong place to go. Maybe we need to be focusing on...

...some other strategy and that initialresearch planning phase that we go through. That brings all of those recomrecommendations of the surface and really allows us to say: Hey here'swhat the other top window companies are doing. Here's what the other top! Youknow, clothing. You know, t shirt companies are doing, there are the bestpractices and here's what we can learn from them. An whor's were going toapply to you to make sure that you're competing at the same level and peoplereally like that and that's that's the way, we're taking the business yeah.That's a an amazing approach, a really good approach. I want to rewind alittle bit, so you said people are asking trying to figure out what whatis digital marketing? Let's start there, let's start out with what is digital marketing. Why is thatrelevant for businesses today MMYEAH? So digital marketing is the samemarketing old marketing stuff that people have been doing since thebeginning of time, but were just doing it on a computer. Instead of you know,using some other traditional form of marketing like billboards or radio oror you know newspaper, we are just applying the same fundamentals to youknow tareting people predominantly in a browser eitheyr on their phone on theirtablet on their laptop on their desk cup. I don't really care about thedevice as about getting people through a browser, because that's where mostpeople are spending their time today, when they're looking for a business,you know the days of a phone book the days of Yellow Pages and saying youknow, I need a plumber, get the phone book honey, let's go oter the yellowpages and find triple a plumbing ride, the days of yellow pages, where youname Your Business, a AA plumbing. So you can get at the top of the YellowPages, Not Marketing Strategy K, ow they're by the wayside. That's calledGoogle right and you know I'll throw some facts out here but like what dothey say? Ninety percent of online experience te start with a Googlesearch. You know if you are ranking in the top three positions in Google for veryspecific sets of search terms realy to your industry, you're going to generatetraffic and that traffic is going to result in in business, so any businessright now, who's, not investing in some digital marketing strategy, in myopinion, is putting themselves at a massive amount of risk because theircompetitors are, you know, we're working with a a company in an industryI I'll leave. I won't talk at re and they realizedthey've been in Te inistry for forty five years. They have spent no money indigital and these new businesses, R, you know, run by. Let's call it quote:UNQUOTE: milenials are popping up and sure those their houses may not be asgood or their T. shirts may not be the same quality but they're investing indigital marketing and now they're ranking up the top of Google and we'vegot folks. Hammon dossing, Hey, like people are going to our competitorsbecause they can't find us or because we have one review. That's two stars onGoogle, my business and saying on't, even Ow googe. My business is butapparently it's important, because people called US and said wow. Do youguys know you only have one review and it's a two star review yeah, but we'vebeen doing x in Wy for forty five years yeah, but you've got a you'V, got areally bad review on Google, my business and you know people who arebuying homes or buying cars. These are now the twenty something yearold people who care about this stuff. Theywant to see you. You know what your online presencs look like from a reviewperspective. You know O or you know, can we find the information about youonline? Can I do? Can I check you EO Acebook or instagram or Linkdan, andyou know, connect the dots and do that bit of h. You know we've alplayed in the onlinedating it game a bit right. You meet somebody online and you do tha little.You know you check them out in Tfe. Different patiforms does everything youknow add up and if you don't there's a huge risk that people aren't going topick up the phone and they're going to call a guid down the road or thecompany down the road that that does look good in all those potforms andwhere there's online reputation is very polished, and I think that's what itcomes down to it's all about allabout trust. It's all about reputation andyou know being online digital. You have...

...to as a business, have a trustworthyonline reputation, which is more than just creating a five page website andlaunching it and hoping that that's good enough. You have to be maintainingall of your different platforms so that when people come and look at you- andthey do that, you know was that like tha sniff test like let's Lhet's Nifaround here, what Ey look like online? What do they look like socially, thatit all adds it up and it all tells the same story so as a call it early stagecompany if you're just getting going at what stage? Do you start to think aboutyour ill? Purposely? Ask You this way yourdigital marketing strategy. When, when do you even start, considering that page in the playbook, I think you haveto be doing it right away, I mean I don't think it should be anafterthought sure there are. There are many businesses that that digitalmarketing or inbound strategy may not be the business model like somecompanies could be built based on outbound sales model. You know we'regoing to hire ten sales raps they're going to make this many calls per day.We know the conversion rat os XY that and and that's their model, but I'll goback to it. It doesn't matter what business you're in you need to have a effective digital marketing strategy.Otherwise you risk your competitor, you know doing itbetter than you and you losing market share to them. I think pretty much any business should bestarting from here are revenue goals we want to do this. You know quantity ofbusiness, whether it's project based or you know, product sales and thenworking backwards through that digital marketing math. To say, if we want tosell two thousand dollars in roofing jobs, you know how many quotes do weneed to do? Okay, sorry, what D I say: Two ThousandDollars: wrring jobs, let's Saye, two million dollars in roofing jobs and ouraverage rooping job is ten M R, ten thousand dollars. Okay. How many quiltsdo we have to give? You know how many leades do we have to talk to? Okay,based on that number of leads? How many visitors do we need to the website andtherefore, what should our plan be to get that traffic there? If companiesaren't doing that and not doing that, math and working backwards from hereare my revenue objectives and working back to. Therefore, I need this manypeople to come to the site and working through all of the assumptions. Then Ithink they're leaving a massive part of their marketing strategy on the table.The problem is, I think, most people, I wount, say most people, many businessowners, don't even know where to start they don't even know how to do the math,because they don't know what they don't know. It's just something that it's alittle too too scary. It's A. I know I should do digital marketing ind, notsure what I should do so hatdare my options. I hire somebody. I use anagency. Some agencies are good, some are bad and it ends up beingprestressful for a lot of lot of business owners, especially whenthey'retrying to run ther business. You know so Um my question: Where do youstart m? You suggested the math so th the math makes sense. I see probably between all F my courses and consultingwork and things. I probably see upwards of a couple hundred business proposals.Plans summarise pitches whatever a year. Often overlooked is the bottom upanalysis to figure out how many customers you'd need. So the mistake islike the market. Is this big? I will take x percentage in your one wrong.The math you're talking about is: If we want to do two million in sales wetypically convert in order to get the sale. We're going to have to go to someF fits a roofing company. We got to go to their house and give them a quote.We convert twenty percent of the quotes that we actually do in person.Therefore, we need x number of to. We need to complete x number of quotes ata certain average deal size in order to convert them to hi t and keep workingback from there. So to get the quote, you nes a certain number ofappointments to get the appointment use a certain number of online leads,that's the mashs that people aren't doing. That is the math that peoplearen't doing and that as the math that we do every single day and that's howwe get graded on how well we're doing as an agency Oro the Clints that wework with right like to give e an idea for some industries. Let's pickindustry a don't only get too specific, you know, say: Hypotheticay you'respending, ten dollars a click to get...

...somebody to your website throughEdwards, which you know. If you didn't know, that's literally what you couldbe paying that's a lot of money right so to get a hundred people to your site,you're spending, a thousand Bucks Toet, a thousand people to your site,Yu'r spending. Ten thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars is a lot of moneylike I don't personally want to go. Take ten thousand dollars, ont of mybank account and just give it away. Unless that money's ging have an R Oyright. So then you get those ten thousand people to your site, and nowyou need to convert them into either a phone call or a get a free quote orstart a free trial, or you know request the demo. The average website isconverting at about two point: Three: five percent right, so two point: Threefive percent is pretty low and in most industries, if you're actuallyconverting at two point three: five percent. When you look at the numbersand you look at the cost to acquire the traffic, the conversion rate on visitorto lead and then the conversion rate from lead to sale, you'll lose moneyevery time, so the top performing websites are converting at ten percentplus, but to get the conversion rate of a landing page or a website from twopoint: Three five percent and to get it north of ten is a tremendous amount ofwork, and it's more than just you know a nice looking website with a fancypicture or a cool little video. You know t ere, we've got a checklist ofprobably a hundred different items that we work through, and every single itemmakes a small incremental improvement. But that is the digital marketing gameas being able to create places to send traffic.Typically, we call them landing pages that cound be your home page or itcould be an actual product page or a service page driving the traffic there analyzing the quality of the traffic analyzing.What people are doing on the page? Looking at the different elements ofthe page, be it the messaging the functionality? The way it responds thedifferent devices, what the target customer is doing and then trying todraw out conclusions of Hu hmaybe. If we make this small change, we coulactually increase the conversion rate a bit right. Not No one change typicallyis going to double or triple your conversion rate, but small incrementalchanges overtime can make the difference between you having aprofitable online experience with digital marketing or having you knowsomething: that' You', just blowing money out and not making money on theon the approach. So this could be potentially overwhelming for newbusiness owners, or even I mean experienced, wouldn't call myself aseason veteran, but I've done a few things and me rolling up my own sleeves latelyinto the digital marketing world. I thought I knew it. I didn't know it aswell, as I thought I did so until your own money is, you know directly on theline and you're teaching it and actually doing it yourself, it's different, so it can be overwhelming right. There's alot of things to test, there's a lot of different tools in technology and whenyou start to do your homework, if their digital marketing tools, they're goodat digital marketing themselves. So now I'm getting twenty emails a day fromall of these services, I'm getting bembarded online. With all these tools,I don't know where to start so marketing math. I agree with you, thenwhat I want to avoid the overwhelmed trap of this digital marketingoverwhelmed that I seem to be falling into yeah. I mean I think you got totake a look at your option so option one learn: It yourself option numbertwo hire somebody who knows how to do it option number three find a companylike hours to work with that can do it for you. So do yourself hire someone R,like your own employe, your Ownemploye, that that has the skill set that youknow can do all of these things or then you know, use an agency and there'spros and cons tat every option I mean I started off because we didn't have thecash learning it myself, but I also had a keen interest in doing it. So for meit just fit, but I mean I had to learn web design. Web Development searchengine optimization. You know: Paperclick, advertising management,social, medium marketing, email, marketing, automation, you know, dataanalects and reporting, it's a ton to...

...learn and I'm still not done learning Imean every single day, I'm watching videos, I'm listening to you know,thought leaders in the space and seeing what people are doing. You know whichsocial platforms have the highest organic reach. Ra Rt right now linkDenis huge right Um and you know you follow a couple of influences. You seethe th type of content, they'reproducing Hend, where they'repushing it out. Linkton is huge right, you're, very active on Lington, and youknow we've done we've connected recently through your Lington posts.You didn't pay for any of those posts right, but I would say most people t atare following you or connected with you are seeing those posts and they'regetting great organic reach Sames if you wer to have posted those exactingthings on facebook. I probably wouldn't be sitting here today, because theorganic reach on face book is pretty much nothing. So I guess my point islearning it yourself. You have to have a keen interest because thereis a tonof stuff, you need to be exposing yourself to option number two hire somebody. Here'sthe challenge. Digital Marketing is not like a one trick pony. You know, I'm agraphic designer and Ow, I'm a digital marketer or I can develop websites. Now,I'm a digital marketer or I can do faseball cads and now I'm a digitalmarketer. That's why it takes my whole team to service a client. So I thinkthere are people out there that can do all of it t most of those people e. Youknow very happily employed making a lot of money. You know. So I would say youprobably want a budget in today's economy. Seventy thousand dollars ayear plus to get somebody who has the type of knowledge. You would need rightor divide seventy thousand dollars by twelve figure. What a monthly retainerwould be and then Oto to an agency to figure it if they can provide the samequality of service. They may not spend as many hours on it, but they've got agroup of experts. So an our team wo got a designer. WEV got a developer. We'v Got t somebody that is reallyreally good at running facebook ads and Google ads and we've got somebody,that's really good at doing sceo and analytics, and we've got the strategyperson and the copy ridder. Like all of those skill sets. We have in house andI think the challenge in hiring somebody, although it's possible Oran,there's companies that do it, you know good life being one of them. Goodlifefitness has a whole team doing this, but they literally need a team. And sothen, your third option is work with a company that you trust that aligns wellwith your values culturally within your company, and I think the agencies thatare like the five to ten employees you're still going to get the attentionof the owner right. You get to the fifty sixty seventy eighty personagencies. You may not, I think the plenty of them they're doing very well,so I'm not trying to put them down by any means, but I think the level ofservice you're going to get from a SMALLGI agency like mine to a largeragency. You know they're going to be bang on one or the other, and I think yknow people need to consider using both. I think for me my biggest lessonslearned w when I was doing this type of work for myself, and so it not a badidea for business owners to get their feet wet. You know, try some things.You know, experiment realize what you know and what you don't know what youcan keep in house and what you need to outsource or what you need a partnerwith an agency for, for example, we work with clients, we don't need to bemanaging their social media accounts for them and, in fact I prefer not tobe right a lot of the time social media is that in the moment type you knowdata r in the moment, content whether it be video or a story or a post thatUS as an external agency, we're not on sight and we're not able to capturethat so have your person. That's in house, you kN W, be your social mediaecoordinator, maybe come to us and will help you figure what the type ofcontent they should be posting, what platforms they should be on. You knowwhat Hash tegs they should be using. What tools they can use to. You know,make their efforts a little more efficient, but do that stuff in houseuse an external party for the more heavy lifting work like marketingauntimation? You know automating repeatable tasks, creatinginintegrating a CR M, like customer relationship management system. To do h.You know integration with your sales team and do the automated email follow.UPS. You know the heavy lifting on Web Design and development, the dataanalytics integration and reporting that kind of stuff. A lot of people aregoing to have a hard time learing on...

...their own and it's, I think, it's moresuitable to hiher experts to do and then keep the things in house that youcan do in hose comfortably and in fact, if you do it that way, I would say yoursocial mean ins going to be better. If you do it in house, because you'regoing to have that real time, you know content and it's going to be moregenuine than something that's planned. Thirty days in advance, when we werebuilding my wife's fitness business, small business folks on pre Anpostnadoin Barry it was Craz or still training. What is the business yeah so thatbusiness is called mum and Bub's health and fitness m? My wife is no longerrunning it. She's gone back to be a teacher and I quickly learned as a likehusband, wife, Cambo. It's super hard to be in businesstogether and then be friends and partners, and now parents, you know weneeded a break and I think, probably for the sake of everybody's benefit.You know she's Goine back to teaching and it's not because the businesswasn't successful. The business was very successful and you know we. Istill have ideas about. Maybe you know selling it or franchising yet, but withforty four north, it's so busy. I don't really have time to focus on it, butwiththat business. The goal was to sell preinpolsnatal fitness to women thatwere six months leading up to having birth so who want to stay fit, leadingup to having their baby and that kind of year post having theirbaby fuge market. You know, Pren Post, you see the stoller fitness groupseverywhere, you see the the fitness focus, classes and h gyms, and we sawan opportunity to build this business and you know we started running. Youknow creatindg some landing pages and running facebookads and we startedtrialing different marketing strategies, and I mean, if I think, about thenumber of lessons I learned in that six months or a year creating that businessdoing it on my own and boots strapping. I would see any business owner thattakes that level of interest and trying they're actually go no e, much moreeducated when they deal with an agency, because they're going to know a littlemore than just saying: Hey, we have a problem. Can you fix it? You K, forexample, we we were running traffic to site, which was you know, Um free classpass, so facebook gads drive the traffic to a landing page, offering afree class pass and three class passes. We were giving out like what's thatterm like they were just flying off the shelf, but the quality of the peopleshowing up for the free class passes was just horrible tire kickers, wrongincome demographic, you know M, they were never going to be.They were never going to be come to hang customer. So, although they we e wt very cheap leads. The quality of the lead was crap, so then we said okay well, let's, let'smake them pull up ter credit card and we started selling a nine dollar threeclass pass. Then we started running a new campaign around that and althoughthet quantity of leads coming out were much lower, two thingshappened. The quality of the people who showed up were much higher and theconversion rate on coming out to a paid discounted class and that trafficconberning into now somebody's paying ninety dollars a month for a programversus the person that coming op for free the conversionary was way higher.The other thing that we I learned is, I was charting nine dollars for a threeclass pass. It was only costing me Aout, eight fifty to sell the nine dollarclass pass, which means I would spend eight fifty make nine bucks spend eight.Fifty or nine bucks make nine bucks, and so the marketing spend itself wasbeing covered by these free classes. So now I had this, you know Yo'l o'll,listen to these online gurus that talk about this, like you know, start withten dollars and scale it and you now you don't even need a marking budget tostart. That's all they're talking about they're, saying you K, ow, take ahundred dollars, invest it make money be more profitable than youwere when you spent money and take the money and reinvest it and overtime,you're marking budget gross. Yet news flash that's really really hard to do,and if it was that easy, every company would be doing it. Butit's tremendously hard. We just happened to crack the not in that smallbusiness or for the most part we could keep investing money and would keeppaying for itself and essentially it generated free leads and that's thegoal for any digital marketing business.

So I learned a lot about you knowpricing and how do you get people in the door and how to convert thattraffic? I also learn a lot about analytics and how important it is to bewatching what people are physically doing. So I often give thispresentation about digital markting framework, and I talk about placementof calld actions and I'll talk about making sure your cold action is abovethe fold so on the landing page at the top when you get there, but also havingyour called action throuout the page and especially have it at the bottomand I'll often ask you now why? Why do you? I think we should have the callthe action there and people say well, because people are lazy, they don'twant to scroll back up, not good there'it's obvious that knowledge isout there, especially in a younger crowd. When I'm talking to like youknow the twenty somethings they've growin up on the Internet. They canthey understand, they may not know why they understand it, but they see it.What turns out whut ninety five percent of the traffic coming to our landingpages were coming by Mobil right. So you think about these women. You knowwhat are they doing Supreme Post Nadal typially? Let's look at the Postnao, sothey are they've. Just had a baby, you know so, are they busting out theirlaptop and throwing it on their lap, while they're no they're, not they'recaring, they're carrying their baby around or maybe they're, breast feedingand so they're all on their mobile device? And it turned out a ton of ourtraffic and, I would say, the majority of our traffic was coming in. I wouldcall non peak hours not coming like in the after work period. No, no! That'swhen that's when, like you know, dinner's being made and kids are tryingto go to bed, they were coming in the middle of the night like midnight tofour am, and we actually were seing a massive spike and purchases coming atlike three thirty, a m four am, and I just couldn't wrap my head around it.You know this is before my wife and I had our kids. I was like what the hecklike. Why are women buying these nine dollar class passesat three thirty in the morning and then it dawned on me, they're, probablybreastfeeding or they're, probably sitting up with their kids in themiddle of the night. Trying to console them to go back to sleep and andthey're exhausted, so they're sitting on their phone they're scrowling aroundon facebook they're, seeing our ads they're going to our landing pagethey're scrolling through they're clicking on this. You know countdowntimer, you've got five hours left to get our nine cl dollar class, pass,they'd Click on it and make make the purchase, and I was like go that's interesting,like all these perchaes are coming in the middle of the night and then Istarted looking deeper and I realized we had a massive. Not only were wegetting a lot of purchases, but we were also losing a lot of people at thecheckout, so Ih'd o asked myself again like. Why is this happening had to putmyself again in the customer shoes and and the only reason I could come upwith- and you know I verified it with some people who you know were in theprogram: Er Theyre up breast feting. They didn'tavether crdit card on them, theywards the credit card, it's downstairs andtheir purse or it's you know. Maybe it's a shared credit card that thehusband and witeshare, so they couldn't make the purchase because they didn'thave the credit card. So what did we do? Two step check out process. You fillout step, one you opten, for you know, communication via castle can antispamlegislation, you know a statement and if somebody didn't purchase within, Ithink we had it se at half an hour. If you didn't purchase, you know completestep too, of making the purchase within half an hour of doing step one. Then wewould note you in our system as saying you know, abandoned cart and we wouldflip you an email. The next morning nd saying hey, we knoc you were checkingout, but you didn't purchase here's the link to purchase. You can still get thedeal and again we saw our conversion rate go up again. So you know, as adigital marketing agency, it's crazy the lessons that were still applyingthree years later from the stuff I was doing when I was bootstrapping with mywife three years ago on this prinposaal fitness business that we're not evenrunning anymore, and, I would say my advice to any business owner is youneed to educate yourself right and watch tsome? U To videos, learn alittle bit about Siol, learn a little bit about facebook ads about web design.All thes stuff is publicly available. U Now you just go search it on you tubeand you can find...

...some good and obviously some bad buto't see there's a ton of good content out there. Listen to potcast like thisand then go talk to somebody and be able to come to the table with a littlebit of education, because I think your strategy is going to be much morepowerful. If you do that, it's interesting you talk about M, I meandigital marketing is the digital. I it's reinforcing the same thing thatyou've always done but digitally, and so, when you talk about that examplethat story it's you had to go analogue. I mean yea, digitally Enhancedin, thatyou looked at the data, but then you went analogue to figure out what isthis data as saying L, Ke w? What activities in the real world arepainting the picture in the data? So it's like the more things change more.They stay the same. Yes, it's digital but like these are real people withreal behaviors that you V had to dig into to get to those insidts. Thedifference is now we have the Datat or fingertips like literally, I can take a client, any client working at the truckingcompany right now we're launching a campaign at the beginning of next month,within twenty four hours of launching that campaign, I'm going to have datacoming feeding back to us where we can start analyzing things like how longare people spending on the site? What are they clicking on? How far are theymaking it through our interactive, quoting form? What device are theysearching on? What locations are they coming from? What keywords are theyclicking on? What keywords are they searching? You can't do that with abillboard or a newspaper ad or radios e radio spot now, don't Hem me wrong. ILove Radio. I love billboards. I think those forty foot tractor trailerbillboards on the side of the four o wane ar awesome and I actually wentdown the roff trying to start a forty foot, trailer sign company because Ithink they're so effective, but you don't get instant data coming back toyou from a billboard with digital. You know if you have all the anilicplatform set up and let's face it. I say all the I'm talking like Googleanalytics, which is free, and there are a couple of other platforms that we use,that we pay nine bucks a month for twelve bucks a month for these aren'tlike massive investments. But if you set these platforms up- and you knowwhat to look for it's quite easy to start derivingactionable conclusions that you can use to start, you know optimizing yourcampaign and that's what's so cool and that's what I think is so awesome forsmall businesses, because you have the you can be nimbleas a small business. If there was one resource that you recommend people,whatever website dtovisit book to read article to read, is there one thatstands out so really topl depends on what you'retrying to learn. So if you want to learn about say marketing automation,then I would check out active campaign and just read: they've got really good,like blog that you can read and then check ut videos of people implementingactive campaign on Youtube. I think outub universally is the best thing.That's happened from an education standpoint, probably ever right, youthink, back to like Con Academy, you Ave, reuse, con academy. I haven't no,I know about it. I think I got through my m B, a using con academy and likewhen I had to learn about accounting. It was a con academy. Video and not tosay anything about, I'm just not smart, very smart, so I'd have o o spend a lotof extra time in the evenings. You know trying to reteach what probably shouldhave come obvious to me in class. Con acalemy is Great. That's you tub freeresource, so you too, by far, I would say one of my favorite people in theworld right now. Digital is rand. Fishkin rand is awesome. So if you're lookng,if you're looking to learn anything about so search engine, optimization man is he a beauty. ISA FROMMAS isatmas. Yeah Somas is that platform that we use for doing like competitoranalysis and keyward research, and you know analyzing how website's doingwithin Google and Rand Fishkin. Has This series called whiteboard Friday rSeo, like all right, ER agency's new...

...flash, OUR WHO S EO strategy by the wayis based on Whiteboard Friday? There you go, you have our secret sauce and,I would say any other person that wants to learn. Se O at whitboard. Foriday isa one a week, video series that he released. He literally has a whiteboard. It is what you Kn W. It sounds like he is a whiteboard. He explainsone aspect to Seo and he's got two hundred videos. He want to learn so gowatch a ran fishgin on whiteboard Friday, the guy's, a beauty he's agreat public speaker, good, looking dude, you know, and just you know heworks you through all of the methodologies and I woul se, everysingle video. You can walk away and go huh interesting. I'm going to go. Dothat like very actionable, not not theoretical in any way, and then Iwould say, for you K, ow facebook ads, Google ads. There are online traingprograms through like you to me, or you know, tere, likefourteen bucks and mix that with some yut two videos you can learn anythingyou need to learn about fasebook ads. Thos would be my recommendation, ChoolMoisicood recommendations. So one last question I wanted to ask it's aquestion I like to ask her most recent guess is: How can we as a community,help you as a business owner? So if we've feard answers, like you know, I'mgrowing, and these are the types of customers that we're looking to workwith, I'm working on a new segment of our business and if anybody's gotexperience in it t en they might be able to help you out. But I'm curiousif we can help you at all with Your Business Yeah. No. I appreciate that. Imean we're we're on fire right now and it's it's great comes with its own setof challenges. So there's probably two or three things. The first thing is:There's a lot of great people coming out of the MBA program and the HBAprogram. We need, I think, to do a good job O of especially th. The Ivy Network is hugeand the nighthe ivy network is, I would say, one of the most differentiatingfactors for me and why came to the program, especially Bein, an army guy,coming with a program with no network on the private sideor, an the businessside afterwards. So I think, from a network perspective, how do we connectstudents with agencies or with companies that are owned or led by IvyPeople? I mean the mkinzis, the banks. I mean that their formal part, formalpart of the MBA program, whether it's through interviews, interview prep, butI would sa on the small business side on the arch pernor sipside. There isn'tas much of that connection, I would love you know the race rosters, theforty four norths. You know you know Alexander Hoven, great guy, doingamazing things. He probably needs to Mi be people. Maybe you guys bring him injust not me just I'm just joking but like get get US small business ownersin and see. If maybe there is an alignment with some of these students,whether it's for sum rereplacements, whether it's for full time jobs or evensome of the consulting programs, you guys are running that's the other thingis, conversely, with anybody whowas listening in the Ivy Network, I mean,if you're startling, with a with a digital marketing problem. Imean we're growing looking to a Lin ourselves with the right customershappy to have a conversation, and I just appreciate h were doing here withthe potcast and you know bring in all of us to participate. You knowlltalk a little bit about what we do. What what we know, what we don't knowwhat we think's happening and then getting it out to the network, becauseI think everybody gets value, that's great last one. So how can people findyou if they want to contact? You want to get in touch either with you couldbe you personally or maybe it's through your company website? What's the bestway to reach you yeah? So if you're looking for you know the contact EST,fere goting diginal marketing, whatever forty four north digital marketing,just simply google? U and you will find us, alternatively, Unlinkdon CoryShelson, you know, sent a connection request and happy to Chot connect on there. Awesome Awesomethisis great, I think, starting to demystify the what happens behind the curtain inindigital marketing rooting it in real life. You know analogue pet ral. Peopleis a really great lesson. So thanks for sharing it as great to have you on andwe will come heavy back and do ground...

...to at somepoint thanks Aryou've beenlistening to the Iviondminor potcast to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player or visit IV dot caforward, slash entrmrenorship! Thank you! So much for listening until nexttime.

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