The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode 52 · 1 month ago

Everyone is selling something with Guy Kawasaki

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Silicon Valley Legend is a prized descriptor, and few fit the term as well as Guy Kawasaki.

A renowned author, marketing specialist, angel investor, and tech evangelist, Kawasaki has a storied career in the Valley - including a major role at Apple marketing Macintosh computers in the early 1980s.

Today, Kawasaki is the chief evangelist for Canva, the Australian graphic design platform, and the host of his podcast and passion project, Remarkable People, speaking to the likes of Jane Goodall, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Marc Benioff and more.

In this special episode of the Entrepreneur Podcast, Kawasaki joins Eric Janssen to discuss his career, the importance of sales, how to be an effective employee in an early-stage start-up, family and fatherhood.

Every day you're selling something. Everybody is selling something. You may be selling the person checking your bags to let you check in an extra surfboard or an extra bag, or put you in a window seat, or God bless you, upgrade you to first class. And you may be selling a waiter a waitress on giving you a free refill. Or you may be selling you know, somebody at home depot to take a return even though you don't have the credit card or receipt that you used to buy this thing. Now, most people would not consider those things quote unquote sales. But let me tell you that's sales. That's every day you are selling. You're listening to the Entrepreneur podcast from the Western Morrisset Institute for ont Preneurship, powered by IVY. In this series, I'd be entrepreneur and I'd be faculty member. Eric Jansen will anchor the session. Our next guest today is near and dear to my heart because he's been a mentor to me for a very long time. We have the one the only Silicon Valley legend, Guy Kawasaki. Guy is an entrepreneur, an author of fifteen books, a speaker, and an angel investor. He's most well known for his role as an evangelist at Apple, Mercedes and now Canada, but his most recent work on his podcast Remarkable People might just be his legacy. His professional life has been very well covered, so on this episode, we dig into Guy's role as a father, a husband, and a teacher. Now being the sales geek that I am, of course, Guy and I hit it off, reminescing about his first job out of college as a salesperson, but we also talk about what it means to be a great father and what lessons he wants to teach his kids. He also offers advice on why you shouldn't stress out about your first job out of college, how to be an effective early stage employee to start up, and prior to the interview, Guy challenged me. He threw down the gauntlet and he said that an interview is only as good as the questions asked by the interviewer. The pressure is on you, folks will have to let me know how I did. Please enjoy this episode with Silicon Valley legend Guy Kawasaki. Well, Guy, thanks for making it happen. We really appreciate it. I want to stay at the outset. This is a podcast, not just for you know, seasoned entrepreneurs, but a lot of younger people just getting started. And often we talk a lot about life, not just entrepreneurship. So I have my own theory about Guy Kawasaki's life, and that is that you have three fs. You prioritize fun, flexibility, and family. So talk to me. I want to talk about family first. I don't know if that's the right order. I would put, um, family and fun as first and second flexibility. I'm assuming you refer not to my hamstrings, but flexibility in what I can do day to day. Um. I must admit that that is not a conscious stated goal. So what happens for me is not so much that you know, I was stuck in a sixty hour week death job and I wanted greater flexibility on my time, etcetera, etcetera, because I've I've had that for years. It's even years since I worked for a large company, And so that's not even on my radar flexibility. I have a flexible life. What's on my radar is, you know, what do I fall in love with? And so I've fallen in love with many things in my life, and the current love is podcasting. And so I could make the case that the amount of money I make is inversely related to how much I love to do. In other words, I love to do podcasting and I make no money. Well, it allows you to do interesting things like have conversations or gives you an excuse to have interesting conversations with people that you might not otherwise have. Correct. Well, that is absolutely true. And you know, I look at it as hopefully preventing dementia because I have to read maybe sixty books a year, and and not just read for sort of enjoyment, but I need to read in order to find a good questions. And so if you looked at the Slice of my Life. Next week, I'm interviewing Peter Segal from Wait, Wait, don't tell me. So I have to understand his life as an NPR radio host. He loves to run, and he had bolts of depression, and he's fundamentally a come I. So I need to understand comedy. And then in the next day...

...or two after that, I have to interview a finance professor from the Business School of M I. T. And we're gonna talk about crypto. And then right after that I have to talk about a woman who has a l S. And then right after that, I have to interview a woman who is living overseas, and um, she is all about women's reproductive rights. So in the span of three or four days, I have to understand four very different things. And now that happens to be a somewhat heavy week, but that's the nature of my life, so I cannot afford to have dementia. So let's go to the podcast for a second, because I got a chance to listen to it before we scheduled the interview, but also leading up to our conversation, and you've interviewed by the title some remarkable people. I'm curious who stands out that we may not have ever heard of that we should probably go listen to that episode. In other words, who's the one the most under the radar remarkable guest? Sure? Well, I've had a lot of over the radar or through the radar or all on the radar guests like Neil de Grasse Tyson and Jane Goodall and Erica. I would argue that my guest lists it may not be the best in all of podcasting, but it's right up there. I mean, I would put my guest list up against anybody's. Now the title of my podcast is Remarkable People, which is not the rich people or famous people. Now, many remarkable people are rich and famous, but that's not why I had them on. And so there are people who have done remarkable things who are not rich and not famous, but are remarkable nonetheless. And I actually take greater pleasure out of giving them, um the publicity and the exposure so that, you know, maybe they can become more rich and famous if that they still desire. So I interview him with a woman who was smuggled across the US Mexico border and now works for Adobe for example. Right, so, yeah, she doesn't work for Goldman, Sachs or Mackenzie. She doesn't. You know, she's not a billionaire, but her story is remarkable to basically start from nothing and now be uh an executive at Adobe. That is a great story. Yeah, fantastic. I think the challenges a lot of the podcasts, even the ones that I've run, it's the big name guests that attatch a lot of or grab a lot of the listenership. But some of the best insights, the best stories are maybe some from some of the people whose names you may not have ever heard of Yeah, you know, listen. Don't get me wrong. I also am a marketer, right, so when people ask me who's been on your podcast, I tell him Jane Goodle and Neil de Grass Dyson. So I'm not you know, you need a few of those, but well, how many need the grass Tyson's and Jane Coodles? Are there? There? That's a that's a point oh one problem. But I guess it's just a matter of balance that you know, you need the marquee names from marketing, but you also need the content. And I would say that a Marquis brand name is not necessarily correlated with being remarkable. Let's just say, hell's that Yeah, well understood, well understood. If you haven't checked it out yet, check out Guys Remarkable People podcasts. It is even for the names that you may not recognize, they're all worth listening to. The guy I want to go to places. First one is you talk a lot in your books. Uh, you talk a lot in some articles that I've read about you about the importance of the title of being a father and that being one that you maybe relate more to, even more so than being a venture capitalist or a marketer. Or an entrepreneur. So maybe start there we talk about what Guy Kawasaki is like as a father. Well, there may be a gap between what I tell you now and what my wife would tell you, who my kids would tell you. Okay, well let's start with that caveat that's it. I would promise you that the gap between what I will say is less than the gap between what Milannia and Donald and Eric and Ivanka would say. Okay, So I have four children. They arrange an age from seventeen to thirty. Two of them are adopted, and two of them are biological. And of course, well even adopted kids had biology of what I'm saying, you know what I mean. And they are just the light of my life. And I am not a tiger dad. I am not trying to...

...make them take calculus in the fifth grade or the or the fifth year. You know, I don't care if they go to an IVY League school while they're not going to go to IVY League schools. Um was especially. I mean, I could make the case if you if you look at IVY League schools these days, not clear that they should be proud of their alumni, even if those alumni make it to the Supreme Court or the U. S. Senate, And so, you know, the good news is, I'm not a Tiger Dad. I'm not trying to force them to follow in my footsteps. You know. It's not like I'm Tiger Woods and I'm making my kids play golf or I'm um, I don't know, Neile grass Tyson and making my kids become astrophysicists. You could do that as positive or negative. Maybe I should take a stronger approach, but I don't know. Like, my observation is that life is so hard and so unexpected and also so opportunity laden that it's very hard to predetermine these things. And so at the end of the day, I mean, if your children are honest and contributing to society and in healthy, happy relationships, I say, freaking declare victory. Man. That's as good as it gets. Yeah, amen, I've mentioned to you I just had our fourth Emily, who's now just over three weeks old, and oh my god. Yeah, the lighting is not fair, right, I'm sure you can see under my eyes. You know, you try to be intentional about the way that you are around them, the things that you might be teaching them, whether consciously or not. And I wonder, is there anything that you think your kids are learning from you, or things that you hope that they're learning from you. Well, I hope they learn that you should treat people with kindness and respect, and not just when you need something from them, nor not when they're rich and fame and powerful. And that you know, the waiter, the waitress, the flight attendant, the electrician, the gardner, They're all valuable and important people. And one thing I've learned in my life is that everybody you meet, literally everybody you meet, can probably do something much better than you. Now, you may be a billionaire and created Tesla or Microsoft, and so you have been rewarded astronomically, perhaps even unfairly, But for all you know, your gardener may be the best longboard surfer in Santa Cruz. Or your your cook. If you're a billionaire, you probably have a cook. Your cook may make the best tomales in all of California. Now you may think, well, frick, I'm a billionaire, I rule the world. But I'm telling you, everybody you meet can do something better than you. It may not be that society has chosen to reward that, but they do something better than you. That's a great, great learning guy. When you you've got four kids there between the ages of seventeen to around twenty eight, which, if my homework is right, when you had your first you were sort of in the middle of writing for Forbes, running a startup, maybe on the brink of returning back to Apple, so you had a lot on your plate. A lot of our entrepreneurs that listen are you know, late twenties, early thirties and trying to balance all of that. Any advice to those people, well, one real piece of advice is Mary Well, but um, I would say that you just during those years, my wife bore the brunt of the responsibility and just you know, knocked it out of the ballpark. That's number one. Number two is I think this concept of a balanced life is fictional. That is, there are times in your life when you're gonna just work your ass off and not have fun. And there're gonna be times in your life where you have a lot of fun and you don't work your ass off. They're gonna be times in your life where you're overpaid, and there's gonna be times in your life where your underpaid and over time. It all evens out. But if you think that you can lean in and have everything totally balanced at all points in your life, you are in for a big disappointment. So if you're an entrepreneur in your twenties or thirties, you know what, You're gonna work your ass off. Just decide you're gonna work your ass off, and you're not going to be like taking two hours to have long strolls after you went to the coffee shop and had Jamaica Blue Mountain with your avocado toast. Okay, that's just bullshit, So get over it. If you if you believe you have to have that kind of lifestyle, then don't start a company. But you cannot do both. And now everybody's like hanging...

...up on this podcast, But I think you just have to make a choice. And there's gonna be times you work your ass off and there's gonna be times you don't, but it's never gonna be the place where you can do both. That's good advice that you mentioned very well. And again from what my homework showed me, I think Beth had a successful career in her own right. She was a marketer. She actually started in sales, which we'll get to Uh, she worked at p and and Apple and Levies, and then you said she maybe took over as primary caregiver for the kids. How did you navigate that when a lot of the again a lot of the listeners that listen to the podcast, they are they may have a partner who also has ambitions just like they do. How did you navigate that? You know, I think it was just blind dumb sh it. Look, you know, as they say, even a watch that stopped is right twice a day, So you would have to interview my wife on that. I I I don't take much credit for that. Yeah, that's fair, you know, have at least I know what I don't know. That's fair. That's fair. Having been through those conversations before, they're hard. You know, there's a really challenging conversations for couples to have. And I letting people inside the fact that they're dirty and they're challenging, and there are struggles behind the scenes as helping. You know. One important thing to consider is that these things were happening to us in the eighties and nineties, nineteen eight and ninety, not eighteen eighty and ninety, and those were different times. So today is a very different story. Oh I'll watch my son who recently got married and his wife navigate that how it goes challenging, right challenging, And I think it can either divide you further apart as a couple or it can bring you closer together. But a lot of the students are listeners of this podcast that I talked to. They want to have conversation. It's not just about you know, the next big thing, but about I found the thing I want to do? But how do I navigate this whole life piece? And that's hard. Well to those people, I'll tell you that, Um, I don't think there is a right or wrong way, and there's only what works and doesn't work for you. And you know, listen, if you become the co founder of the next Facebook and your nanny has a personal assistant and your nanny has a nanny, Okay, but you know all that, I'm not high. No, it could be right for the co founder of Facebook whose nanny has a nanny and personal assistant as a personal assistant to have a certain lifestyle, but that might not be right for you. That's not saying that you're wrong and she's right or you're right, and she's rolled. It's just different. Yeah right, guy shift gears here a little bit. We originally connected because I teach a sales class at university, which is rare, less than four percent of universities teach sales. And yet you started your career in sales correct five years at a jewelry store. Well, no, not a jewelry store, a jewelry manufacturer. Sorry, So you want to know what the lesson is? I want to know. You know, Guy Kawasaki is now Guy Kawasaki, but he he started, as you know, just quote unquote just a sales guy. Well, so I went to work after my m B a well during the MB and after the NBA for a fine jewelry manufacturer in downtown Los Angeles. So this company sold to jewelry stores as opposed to retail jewelry, and so into drewry stores is hand to hand combat. It's about trust, it's about you know, golden diamonds are valuable, but their commodities. Yeah, so you can tell how much a ring is worth by throwing it on a scale in terms of gold, design quality. All the other stuff is debatable, shall I say? So? Now the lesson I learned really in life is that fundamentally, in life, there are only two functions. You are either making something or selling something. And so if you cannot make anything, you better be good at sales. And if you cannot sell anything, you better be good at making it. And and this is in this is really really true for entrepreneurs. So as a startup, there's only two functions in your company, making it and selling it.

Everything else is secondary and people have to learn that. And so, you know, and I'm saying everything that you would attach the words strategic too in a startup is probably bullshit. So if somebody says we have strategic partnerships, bullshit, we have strategic intellectual property bullshit. It's all bullshit. Somebody's gonna make it, somebody's gonna sell it, you know, and then people somebody has to collect it. Okay, But fundamentally, the two most valuable positions in a job, or the two most valuable positions in a company is the guy or gal who makes it and the guy who gals who sell it. And that's it. And if you have those things locked and loaded, everything else is easy. If you don't have it, everything else is a nightmare. So you said, your old boss Marty said that people love to have the marketing title versus sales. Why is that? Why do people continue to gravitate towards marketing versus selling? Well, in my case, I was not a commissioned sales rep slapping a bag on the road, so I literally no, I did do that, But that that wasn't you know. I didn't have a territory, and I was involved with things besides sales, like advertising and you know, PR and those kind of things. So the natural title was, you know, marketing. Now, I think the underlick question you have is, you know, is sales kind of negative, greasy, you know, shock and jive bullshit, whereas marketing is high end, strategic. There the S word, you know, etcetera, etcetera. And yes, there is that stigma if you say you're a sales one for a car dealership. Yeah, you know, not a lot of people will say, yeah, that's who I want my daughter or son to marry. But I gotta tell you, I mean, it's a skill. It's and it's it's really it's a skill. No no bitter or worse than engineering or finance or marketing or anything else. And a great sales person is a beautiful thing to behold. I don't know, you know, people should not lose sleep over this. And I would also make the case that every day you're selling something, everybody is selling something. You may be selling the person checking your bags to let you check in an extra surfboard or an extra bag, or put you in a window seat, or God bless you, upgrade you to first class. And you may be selling waiter or waitress on giving you a free refill, or you may be selling you know, somebody at home deeple to take a return even though you don't have the credit card or receipt that you used to buy this thing. Um. And so now most people would not consider those things quote unquote sales. But let me tell you that's sales. That's every day you are selling, and even the the actual sales function. Uh. People think about companies like Google. Right, Google has more sales people, maybe even than engineers. And it's Google. Yah yeah, I mean, um, Now, admittedly some sales are more easy than others. Okay, but somebody is at Google trying to convince people to use AdWords. I guarantee that this that doesn't just fall from the sky. And so that's that was the beautiful thing about my background in jewelry in that I learned hand to hand combat selling. You know, today, I think many millennials things, Oh, selling is when you decide whether you should use the blue background or the red background in an A B test on the homepage. That's sales. That's not sales. Sales is when you're looking in the eye of somebody and they're about to throw you out after you took six months to get the appointment. That sales tell me about that guy. Because in the people look at, for example, your background at Apple and say, you know Apple like Google. My gosh, you know how how much of a blessing it would have been to sell Apple. But in the eighties, selling developers on the Mac platform maybe not the easiest. Um, well, it's the complex question, So I'll give you the easy side first. The easy side first is that Macintosh represented a very rich programming environment, so developers liked the ability to...

...create the software they're always dreamed about. Macintosh was also opening up new markets to people who would have never bought a computer before, so it was expansive and Macintosh it enabled you to be on two platforms instead of just one, the IBM PC. So arguably it was safer to be on two horses than one. So don't get me wrong. It was not hard to get people to start. It was hard to get people to finish because it was hard to write software and it was selling. Now, I say, I hope if I were not as good a sales person an evangelist, I would not have convinced people to believe in Macintosh enough to bet their company by writing Macintosh software. And so I mean evangelism comes from a Greek word meaning bringing the good news. So I brought the good news of Macintosh. The good news of Macintosh was that it increases people's creativity and power and efficacy. That is very different than saying, Okay, here's my sales quota, here's my commission structure. I need x new software products to get my bonus. That's not how it was. What we were trying to get people to do is believe. If you get people to believe, selling is easy, hey man, and I love. That's why I love your book Enchantment. You basically re rebranded or give a different perspective on what true selling actually is. I hope, So I love, I mean I love the process. It's there's nothing wrong with being a salesperson. If you were to waive your magic wand and you know, bestow a new graduate of a business school or new graduate of any school with a few skills that would make them successful in selling. What would those skills, traits, stabilities be. Well, obviously I'm gonna say the ability to sell, right, that's of the battle. But I mean, for example, my wife when she graduated from college, her first job out was working for Proctime Gamble in field sales. I know people whose job out of college was working for IBM and field sales. I'm telling you, you get to crap beat out of you in those kind of positions, maybe more than selling jewelry. And it's very valuable experience. Now by contrast, so you know, might some might some might look loud and say, oh, so you're a PNG trainee, you're an IBM trainee. You know, I went to work for Goldman Sacks, or I went to work from Mackenzie right, or I became a private equity or I became a venture capitalists. And you know what I would I tell people, that is the worst possible start to your career. You should do those kind of things at the end of your career, but at the start of the career you need to get the ship kicked out of you because you need to appreciate what it takes to succeed. And now it's not like I applied to Goldman Sacks that I got rejected, So I'm piste off because it never occurred to me to apply to Goldman Sacks. But let's just saying. So you go to work for Goldman Sacks. You know, you started I don't know, two hundred and fifty dollars a year. You spend twelve hours a day cranking some partners Excel spreadsheet, and you fly around with that partner in a private jet and you sit in board meetings where everybody sucking up to your boss. How does that prepare you for the rest of your life unless you become the boss and everybody else is sucking up to you. So you know, I mean, did what did you just learn? And guess what if you stay in investment banking or you stay in consulting long enough and become partner, guess what your primary job is? Sales? You are selling as the partner you are selling. That is true, That's true, you gotta make it rain. Yeah, but I mean, but that's a that's the worst form of sales because you gotta go and sell like five million dollar contracts knowing that somebody who just graduated with a degree in oriental art history is not going to tell a company how to revamp their logistical chain. I mean, he like, and you know, my my bone to pick with consultants is that what I have learned over my career is the hard part is not figuring out what to do. The hard part is implementation. So when a consultant tells you, oh, you need to be in the upper right magic quadrant, well, ship, I can...

...tell you that right now. To anybody, right, the question is, well, how do we get in that upper right quadrant? How do we develop an innovative product that is unique and valuable. How do we lower cost so that you know, we can compete on price? How do we get in that upper right hand corner? Getting in the upper right hand corner, It's not an hall, it's a dui is um. The question is how, And you know what good ideas are easy. Implementation is hard. Yeah, absolutely agree. I I agree that's a tough business to be in. And I for the same reasons. It sounds like you either because I didn't know it existed or because the work, frankly, just didn't sound like it was interesting. It's not the career path that I chose. Are a lot of Frankly, our entrepreneurship students choose. Probably not a lot of Goldman Sacks employees listen to on podcasts. That is, I don't think we're I don't think we're alienating anybody by having this conversation. That's for sure. You mentioned so on skills that you should be learning. UM. I teach a sales course. I try to have a little bit of fun with it. And one of the things that I do with our classes, UM started the I started the Rejection Olympics, and I give them, you know, university students come to class and they're playing bingo. But basically I give them a card. I give them a bunch of unrealistic, ridiculous tasks that they need to perform. So they need to go order a pizza at the cough at the Starbucks. They need to try to get on the bus without paying bus fare, not by lying, by trying to get on and so the purposes getting them comfortable with just straight up getting rejected, and by the end of it they come back and realize that it's actually not that bad. So my question, guy, is if we were to add maybe a few activities to the bingo card that were guys special activities, things that they could do that get them rejected and get them to overcome that fear of rejection. Is there any thing that you think I can assign them? Um, you could try to apply for a job at Apple. I mean, good thing, the standards are much lower when I have I applied, you know, and I don't. I'm not suggesting that you should purposely get your ass rejected so you have the the sense of being rejected, but I think you just have to understand that. Um, the question is not whether you ever get rejected. The question is what do you do after you're rejected? And this this is a matter of Well, there's two factors. One is good luck and the other is grit, which you could make the case that luck and grit are two sides of the same coin. And um, I I attribute a lot of my success to both factors. I was lucky that my parents emphasized education. They made a sacrifice to put me into a private school. That private school let the Stanford. Stanford led to meeting Mike Boytch, the first evangelist Key brought to Apple, and the rest is history. It all started because a sixth grade teacher told my parents to take me out of the public school system and put me in a private prep school. That is just, you know, complete utter luck that she told my parents that and they made the sacrifice. Now, on the other hand, it's not like I squandered that right, It's not like I, um, I didn't have a silver platter. Don't get me wrong. You know, my story is not one of overcoming tremendous challenges and somehow persevering. You know, they're not going to make a movie of my life. I had a very very good life, not in the sense that um, I lived in Trump Tower, but in the sense that I'm healthy, and I have dodged many bullets, and I've been in the right place at the right time, So I do not underestimate. Look, and you know, the person who's living pennyless on the streets in Calcutta is not that different from me. It's just where we were born. And I didn't have anything to do with that. Having said that, you know, then, what do you do with the blessings you were given? And that I had a lot to do with. May you made the most of the situation, the good situation, the good fortune that you had. Um, yes, that is definitely true. No one can say that I squandered everything. That's for damn sure. So guy, we've got a bunch of new grads coming out in a bit of a time of uncertainty. Kind of when I graduated back two eight, the world was a little bit uncertain, and a lot of the students that I just taught this this semester, this past semester, entering a world is a little bit uncertain, you know,...

...job market is shifting those sorts of things. Any advice that you'd have to the people that are just getting started just hitting working world after so, I think the first piece of advice is over the course of your career. I think someone who graduates now is gonna probably were for fifteen or twenty companies. That's very different from my day. And so you need to chill ax about your first job, second job, maybe even third, four fifth job. So trying to thread the needle and find that perfect first job is a waste of your time, and it's because you're not going to stay in that job very long. And I don't know how you define a first perfect job. I mean many people might define the first perfect job as management trainee Goldman Sachs or Mackenzie or Bane or BCG. Okay, I mean, okay, so now you think you have the perfect job to what learn how to suck up to rich people? Okay? Not clear to me. That's the best life training. But okay. Now, on the other hand, maybe your first job is working at Starbucks. Okay, and maybe at Starbucks you'll learn shit. Physical labor is hard and ship people are abusive. On the other hand, you know you enjoy your work. Your enjoy the face to face you worked up your way to managing a Starbucks store. I gotta tell you, somebody who makes it in Starbucks, somebody who makes it in retail has my respect, um, because I know how hard it is, particularly now, to be a frontline worker. That's a lot better than slipping a bag on a Gulf stream cranking Excel spreadsheets all day. So so number one is, you know, don't sweat the perfect job. First job. Number two is get in any way you can. I think a lot of people have this thought that, you know, they gotta get in the right way. It's because I don't know they had the highest g p A, the best pedigree they had, you know whatever. I got my job at Apple purely because of nepotism. I didn't have the right background. I didn't have the right g p A. I don't have the right anything. I got in because I was the friend of the guy who hired me. So don't be proud how you get in. What matters the day after you get in is what you do because nobody gives a ship how you got in. What they give a shit about is what you do once you're in, and that's what you need to focus on. So to take both extremes. If you have a really crappy background but you're very valuable employee, hallelujah. If you have a great background but you're not a great employee, nobody gives a shit about your great background. You cannot live on that. So just get in and don't be proud. And when I say just get in, I mean, you know, everybody would love to have that product manager, regional sales manager, you know, high salute entitle in particular. I think in a tech firm, basically just take any job they offer you. I mean seriously, I mean, you know, go to work for a temp agency that places you in night security at a high tech startup. I'm taking an extreme I wouldn't say this is ideal, but so let's say that, you know, you take that job and working in night security, you become friends with the programmers or the marketing people or the salespeople, and they figure out that, Wow, this person is bright, this person is intelligent, honest, empathetic, etcetera, etcetera. What's he or she doing insecurity? This person has more potential, and a recruse you out of the security temp agency and put you in that company as you know, assistant sales schlipper, and then that becomes the next Google, and pretty soon you'll be owning the San Francisco Giants. So it doesn't matter where you start, it matters where you end up. Now, if you go to work for a company that is two hundred years old and has his very rigid structure and career paths, throw that advice out the window. But I tell you something. If you were the first person to run the Google Fitness centers. You would be a very happy person today. Okreat okreat creat advice. Guys. I want to ask you a few more questions before we close, But one is about your personal habits. You've been writing very consistently for decades now, many books, podcasts, blog posts. What is your personal schedule? Is this something that you do every day at a certain time. This is where you should not ask me the question, because listen, I know the concept. I know the Julia camera and...

...concept. If you wake up every morning and you do your you know, your personal writing thing. And I know the concept that you should prioritize your writing, that you know, as soon as you get up right, you're two or three or four or five pages for the day and then do everything else. Okay, I know all those concepts prioritize. You know the story of um the professor who stands up in front of the class and has a has a jar and he puts in the golf balls, and he asked the class is the jar full? And the class says yes. So then he puts in pebbles and then he says, okay, now is the jar full? And the class says yes, and so he puts in sand and he says, okay, now is the jar full? And they say yes, and then he puts in water. And and the lesson is, if you put the big things in the jar first, everything else can come after. But if you were to put the sand and the pebbles and the water first, you cannot put the golf balls in. Right. So I understand concept completely. I will tell you I am the worst. The first thing I do in the morning is I check text messages, and then I check I know that I text social media. And after I do that, no, it's like ten o'clock or eleven o'clock, right, and that's when I start, like, just yesterday, I'm interviewing next week Peter Segal of wait, wait, don't tell me on NPR. The most important thing I could do right now is figure out the best questions to ask Peter Sego, because Peter Sego is a great, great comic and interviewer an NPR. So this is this is not something you take your b game too. This is not something that you look up as Wikipedia entry and then you try to bullshit your way through the interval. You really better be on your game when you interview Peter Sago. So theoretically, what I should have done at seven am is die into Peter Segel's life. Okay, I can tell you with total certainty, I went to a coffee shop at seven thirty. I started working on Peter Segel at ten because for the first two and a half hours I was answering email, and I was text messaging with my friends about surfing, and I was doing everything except preparing for that interview. So the short answer to this question is do the opposite of me. Now it works for you reason but wait. The reason why I can get away with it and still be hopefully in your eyes, successful is that two things. One is I'm willing to work longer and harder once I get going, And second, after forty forty five years of doing this, I can do it very quickly. So this is the concept of Malcolm Gladwell of Blink that you know, after you do something for a long time, you come so good at it that you know maybe other people will take hours and hours and days and days, but for you, it's like falling off a log. This is not really actionable advice for most of your audience, because the ability to do that comes when you're sixty seven years old. But early days. Guy, we're talking back to what when you first started writing for Forbes in I don't even remember when I started before. You had some habits. You had some habits that seem to be working because you wrote a lot for them. Well, I think a lot of it, to be honest, is retroactively reinventing your past, which is to say something like, oh, yeah, when I was young, unlike you, I didn't screw around, I didn't waste my time. I was focused, I was diligent, I was hard working bullshit, you know, like you know, people would say, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, like today's millennials, what do they do? They go to work at Google. What's the first thing they do? Oh, they stop and they get there flat and whites. So now they're getting their flat whites. And then what do they do? Oh, they go to the they start their laundry in the free laundry and a washing machine. And then what do they do? Oh, they go to like there's a mid morning employee yoga session for team building. And then what did they do? Oh? Then they picked their lunch. Should it be the free barbecue, the free sushi, the free filafo, the free home us, the free vegan, the free you know steak and then what did they do? Oh? Then they you know? So you know, I think people my age look at millennials and say it at Well, I'll tell you something. When I worked...

...for the Macintosh division, and this is eighty four, we spent a lot of time shooting the ship too, don't get me wrong. And so every generation thinks that when they were young, they were much more discipline and hard working. And these young kids these days, they just don't know what the meaning over total bullshit. We all screwed it wrong. This is I mean, I love that you're just being real with a guy, because you're right. You retroactively label your whatever. Success has a certain way, and people maybe aspire to be that or give themselves ship because they don't live up to whatever Guy Kawasaki said is the right way to do it. So I appreciate you being honest about it. Thank you, Thank you guy. What are you most proud of? Most proud of? Well, my kids and although maybe that's false pride because my wife should be most proud of, not me, But anyway, I was there at least um. I think that the best work I have ever done in my career. And just to recap my career. I worked in the jewelry business. I evangelized Macintosh, I started several companies. I started a venture capital firm. I wrote for Forbes, Macworld, mac User, I wrote fifteen books. I've given hundreds of speeches all around the world. If you just say, Guy, in all the things that you did, what are you most proud of, and what do you think add or ads or will add the most value to the world, I will tell you without a doubt it's my podcast by far. Because I think I've been preparing my whole life to be a podcaster, not that I planned it that way. Why is that? I was that you can't leave me hanging? Why? While because I think that, first of all, I think the the quality of my podcast will not be appreciated until I'm dead. But that's that's a whole different discussion. Um, I think that what's hard. This is what's hard about being a podcaster. First, you have to have the ability to get guests. And the way you get guests is not that you know everybody, but they know of you. Right. So the reason why I got Jane Goodall is because the woman who runs ted X for Palo Alto knew of me and thought I would be a great interviewer of Jane Goodall. It's not because Jane used the Macintosh. It was familiar with my work. So it's taken decades for lots of people to know of me. So that gives me a door that most people do not have. So that's one aspect. The next aspect is, let's say you're on stage with Jane Goodall. Now you've got to know what to ask her. And that is a very very difficult thing to do, and I wish I could describe it, but you have to, like, um, you just have to see things where other people may not see things, and you have to pick up perceptions and you have to like have insights. It's almost as if things just you know, come out of the universe and enter your brain. And so I'll give you an example. So with Jane Goodall, my insight from her is that we're not for her mother, who enabled her as a young girl to go live in Africa. Jane good Old might not be Jane good Old. And so I asked her about her a relationship with her mother. How with a hell did your mother let you go to Africa at I don't know, twenty or whatever, and and you know, back then, you didn't just fly into Locos and get off the plane. And you know if you you took a out a thirty days steamer or something. Right, So so it's it's it's that kind of thing. And I tell you, one of the one of the goals I strive for in every podcast is that at least once and the more they do it, the happier I am is the person says to me, oh my god, guy, you really did a lot of research on me. I mean with Angela Duckworth, I asked her if her daughter was still playing the cello, because she went into a whole thing about you not letting her daughter quit the cello. And so when I...

...started a podcast, it's not like a producer handed me Angela Duckworth or Jane Goodall's Wikipedia entry and said, okay, guy, have at a she's on in five um. And so so when you're your guests says, oh my god, you really did a lot of research on me. And the second thing that I strive for in an interview is when the guest says, no one has ever asked me that before um so A given example with Neil deGrasse Tyson. I believe he has three children, and I cannot exactly remember their names now, but I think of the three children, two were named after the moons around Jupiter or something like that. So one of my questions to him was, well, how come you didn't name your third child after a moon around Jupiter? Because Jupiter has five wombs, so you can know you could have had two more kids. And let's just say that, probably nobody has ever asked him that question before, so I love to do that, and to do that it takes a lot of prep. You've been very well prepared for this. So you know how many how many times have I been on a podcast and the interviewer asked me about my wife's experience at Procter and Gamble. I cannot remember every happening before. I was worried you were gonna say everybody, but yeah, I was. When I saw that she started in sales, I was excited. Well, you know, the mark of a good salesperson is preparation, right, And you know what I tell you something, a very tactical piece of advice is God's gift to sales and God's gift to marketing and God's gift to entrepreneurs. Pitching for money or sale is LinkedIn. Oh my God. I mean, if you're meeting with Guy Kalawasaki and you don't look at his background on LinkedIn and find out that he worked at Apple, or he worked at Motorola, or he was in the jewelry business, or he loves to surf. If you don't know those things when you meet with me, you don't deserve to succeed. You're right, right right up? I agree? I agree? Uh, Guy, I want to I want to wind this down to be respectful of your time. Um again, I primarily young entrepreneurial audience. I want to end with any any advice to call it your twenty two year old self or I know your son I'll say recently graduated, but you have a son graduate recently. Any advice that you give as people are just getting going here, things that you wish you would have learned at twenty two, Well, at I wish somebody had told me don't quit Apple twice. That's a few hundred million right there. Uh would that change anything? Though? Guy? I mean, I would probably be an insufferable asshole, so arguably I dodged the bullet at two. Like I said, you know, don't sweat the first job. Don't be proud. Take any job, any position you can if you're interested in what the company does or the industry is. Don't worry about how you got the job. Just do well in the job. Don't get married too early because it's very difficult to have a life work balance. That's not say moron in my opinion. And finally understand that probably over the course of your lifetime, your kids will bring you your your greatest joy, not your car, not your house, not your option package. It's going to be your kids. That's great advice. The Entrepreneur podcast is sponsored by Quantum Shift two thousand and anole. I'm Connie Clarici and Closing the Gap Healthcare Group. To ensure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player, or visit Entrepreneurship dot U w O dot C, a slash podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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