The Entrepreneur Podcast
The Entrepreneur Podcast

Episode 51 · 5 months ago

Snakes and ladders with Rick Cytrynbaum


For Rick Cytrynbaum, the entrepreneur life can feel like a game of snakes and ladders. Yet rolling the dice, doesn’t have to be a game of chance.

Through years of hard work and hustle, Cytrynbaum has built a diverse and innovative career in the fashion space, where he has developed footwear for New Balance, co-founded House of Harlow 1960 with Nicole Richie, worked with celebrities like Kanye West and Heidi Klum, and owned multiple brands like Modern Vintage, Champion, and Kendall & Kylie. He was also an influential player in the rise of the direct-to-consumer model that brought a wide range of celebrities into the fashion industry.Cytrynbaum joins Eric Morse to share various aspects of his journey; from finding the white space in an industry, and cultivating one’s gut feel, to the critical role failure plays in the life of an entrepreneur.

You're listening to the entrepreneur podcast from the Western Morrison Institute for Entrepreneurship, powered by Ivy. My name is Eric Morris and I'll be the host for this session for Rick Sintrom bomb. An entrepreneur, life can feel like a game of snakes and ladders. Yet rolling the dice doesn't have to be a game of chance. Through years of hard work and hustle, sindrome bomb has built a diverse and innovative career in the fashion space, where he has developed footwear for new balance, Co founded house of Harlow, nineteen sixty with Nicole Ritchie, worked with celebrities like Kanye West and Heidi clumb and owned multiple brands like modern, vintage, champion and Kendall and Kylie. He was also an influential player in the rise of the direct consumer model that brought a wide range of celebrities into the fashion industry. Centrome bomb joy is me to share various aspects of his journey, from finding the white space in an industry and cultivating ones gut feel to the critical role failure plays in the life of an entrepreneur, director consumer. Maybe just explain. What is that and why was it different? and new kind of in those early days. Well, I mean I think. I think what happened in the apparel space or in any sort of fashion business in the last, you know, fifty sixty years was everything was curated by a handful of stores. So, you know, your whole life in regards to fashion, marketing, design, creative was all curated by, you know, a certain number of people. So let's just say you go to the US, you you know, you'd walk into, you'd walk by the Bloomingdale store and you'd see in the window they'd be showing, you know, pink dresses or maybe showing, you know, yellow and it all be curated by their vision of what they're doing. The same way the movie business was being curated by you know, universal pictures, you know, Sony and someone. You know, they chose the people that would be the celebrity and then say we're going to promote you, market you and then literally put you into a movie. And then, if you're a designer, if bloomingdale's you know, if you ever see that Halston movie, you know how they went to Berndorf Goodman and if Bernd doorf Goodman would be the one that would actually, you know, present you. They would be the ones that be like the front page of the magazine for the consumer to see it. I think in the last ten years or fifteen years, based on Internet and, you know, social media and so on and so forth, every single person in this room here is a curator of their own business, of their own life. So a direct consumer model allows anybody in the Industry today or anybody sitting here today, to be able to speak directly to the consumer without a middleman involved. I either retailer. That's the concept of directed consumer. Fashion was the first part of directed consumer, just based on the fact that fashion is such a Um, I don't want to say fashion is such a UM emotional purchase that it was the asked this thing to be able to attain traction indirected...

...consumer, just based on the fact that it was an emotional purchase. So, as opposed to going into a store that's curated, if someone else who has social influence, who has you know, is able to attract or get to you, then you'd be able to say, Oh wow, I can speak directly with that person. That's why you know social media and then you know switching into direct consumer based on social media has become such an important part. I'm just really cool. Yeah, you, but you added to that. I mean you used influencer celebrities and you're, you know, a kid from western Ba n. How did that happen? How did you reach out to those folks? How did you get involved? I mean I got involved. I mean just, you know, sheer, sheer grind. I came from the I came from the real, the real, I had to say, like the real hustler mentality. Um, coming out of school, Um, I wasn't given, I don't want to say it wasn't given very much, but I I aspired in my life to to to take my business and take myself. Once I came to Western, to be very, you know, truthful, came to Western and I saw the ability of who who was that Western. I was living in Montreal prior and then coming to western and seeing international students and, you know, visiting Vancouver with some friends the first time and then coming to Toronto more often and having that more experience. I believe that this was for me what I always wanted, you know, I wanted to us to grow myself and I think that I had a guerrilla sort of a type approach. Um, differently than in today's model. To to to to do that. Okay. And so when you made those connections, uh, you know, going into business with some of those folks, was that an usy decision for you? Is that? was that part of a plan, or did it all kind of just work out? You know, definitely wasn't a plan and it is really difficult to plan, I think. I think what happened to me, Um, which was actually really good, is that in two thousand when I started my business. Um, I sold my first business in two thousand and six. So when I saw my two thousand and seven. So I saw my first business in two thousand and seven. So I'm born in seventy five. So Um, you know, it's probably my you late, you know, Thirties, early thirties, whatever. At the end of the day, for me I made such an enormous amount of money that for me, what happened that was successful for me is I was able to then take that money and then go into different businesses and try different things and get involved in sort of different aspects of it and, you know, work with other friends that were in a different business and invest with them and sort of create that that that sort of structure. Um, but the first one was like pure hustle and then I worked, you know, three days straight. I was running, doing weekends, everything. My my priority was my I mean it's it was a bad mixture, but it was my prior my priority was was success and and and it was, yeah, full grind, just full grind, just gotta just so grind. Lots of success in the fashion industry makeup as well. Yeah, I mean we found, you know, I figured out differentniches. So when you talk to someone like you know, I always took the meeting. You know, the funniest thing is that, you know, you call these different. You know, anybody here wants to call up a business, wants to go meet, as... said before, wants to go meet a company that's doing something. Maybe you can sell them something, maybe you can be involved with them. Like the most the worst businessmen are the one who are like, I'm busy, you know, I'm making appointment, giving an appointment in three months, or have no time for you, like the actual time to not spend learning from other people are trying to get. You know, that's what I would do. So I would push my way through and then I'd figure out you know what that guy was thinking about it and figure out my way to to do something with them if that's the structure that I wanted to, uh, to do at the time. You know what I mean? Yeah, and you've talked about it in the past, just the importance of listening. You know. Can you talk about how that helped and making those connections, perhaps because you know as you want to make the connection. So let's say, let's say you go and you want to meet, you meet someone and you know you want to know what they're all about and you want to know, hey, how can I connect with them? So you're not gonna look through a crystal ball. That doesn't work. You're not gonna sit there and just keep talking about yourself or keep talking about what you do to understand what they want. But if you sit there and you flip the script and you put it onto them, Um, I always believe in and putting it onto someone else saying hey, just tell me a little about yourself, I'd love to know more about what you're up to, what you're doing. Just tell me you're not so smart and I want to understand everything you know. And they would always sit and they'd be like, well, you know, I started my business and they would go through the process and then, as they're going through certain things, I'd say, Oh, wait a second. Oh, so you make sunglasses? Oh yeah, I own to. I own Martian, which is not me, but the other gentleman I owned Martiaan were, you know, large Italian manufacturer. So I'm so, I work with Nicole Ritchie and Nicole does glasses like this, like this. Why don't we manufacture them together? You know, saying or I offer the guy something and then in turn he response. He says, Oh, I can help you. So instead of a wash your hand washer back of someone, of somebody else. But you know that that's listening, listening and listening to understand and and figuring out within that listening, like what that white spaces or what that opportunity costs or what that spot is that you can wiggle your way in. Um, it's really hard to find an opportunity when you're talking all the time. Yeah, super true, super true, especially as an entrepreneur, and everybody has an entrepreneur wants to Bein, wants to speak out. Everybody here for sure wants to overspeak, overtalk and tell everybody how amazing their product is what they're doing in the wholeline arts, which conceptually doesn't always work. It actually works against you, but we don't know that until later on in life. So, yeah, cool, Rick I, I know you're serial entrepreneur and, Um, I've heard you talk about failure in the past. It's a lot like Michael Jordan. He's made a lot of clutch game winning shots, but he missed ten times. What what is it you learned from failure and maybe share one or two if you if you would. Yeah, I mean, you know, failures, Um, you know, I guess failure, failure comes from different ways. I mean it comes from the EGO. Um, it comes from acting too quick, moving too slow. I mean there's there's this like right balance between like and, I always believe fully like going with your guts. So if you go with your gut, your guts never gonna, you know, Never gonna sort of lead you in a wrong direction. But I mean failures, Um, you know, really frame the person. I think that there's such a framing that has to happen in failure that if everything is success and everything success, you don't really understand how to like,... know, balance yourself or at least understand the balance and it also doesn't make you think that you know what you're doing. Could be right, could be wrong. Think of it different ways. So the failure structure for me actually allows you to sort of like rethink, rethink, you know, it allows you to have empathy for other people who, allows you to have gratitude, to understand sort of what you have, and it sort of sets a new bar for yourself personally to not know that everything that you're doing is going to work. So I think there's a I love. I love a good I mean I've had so many, so many crazy failures, you know, but you know, trying to, you know, build something that was completely unique. I had a I mean I created this this idea when I was came out of Western whatever, which was a baby carrying seat. Yeah, I had a baby seat. So so I was walking in Tokyo Japan, literally I was walking in Tokyo Japan and I saw this thing that I'm like, Oh my God, that's the coolest thing ever, which was like a belt that you wear which has like a little seat and then you pick up your and you're walking with it and you can actually put on the bat. Often there's like a little mini seat so you pick up your your your kid instead of holding onto your kid. Guessed the whole time. We're not wearing a baby viewerner, but you'd put the baby on the seat and all the weight of the kid would sit on the structure of your waist. So I realized that's really cool. So I went like hardcore on it, you know I mean I went, you know, I got Angelina Jolida were and when she had her first baby was Shiloh. I mean I had everything and then I was like the one mother lets the hand off the kid, the kid falls up. Business is zero, you know what I mean. Like so you start to realize, how could there be a failure? What mother is gonna let go of their children? But like no retailer actually believed in it. And this is pretty direct to consumer, because that would have been successful, DT C um, but I couldn't. I literally went so many times, like by by baby, I'm all these different places to try and get it done and it wouldn't it wouldn't work and I just burned a ton of moned of the idea be conce actually it was very cool Um, but it didn't work and my other big failure, or semi failure, was we created a magnetic Um. I thought it was gonna Laugh, a magnetic you closing system. So I invented an idea with neodymium sort of magnets which when you put your shoe on and it sort of clicks the shoe together and your laces and you can adjust and it's done through these like small little magnets that are very hard to which are super cool. No, it actually it was called zoopits. We actually got like we did, like your daughter is laughing. Yeah, that's okay, we we, we did. We did a kickstarter campaign. We got like seven grand, like everybody was buying it was amazing and it and it worked. It was just as you walk, like you'd have like quarters on your foot and you'd have like random metal things walking around everywhere on your shoe. It was the coolest idea. I actually went to a rebox and I sat with them and I showed them that. They're like, Oh my God, this is amazing. I just couldn't get the cost down and people just couldn't handle having like metal things like fung to their flung to their shoe. So and it was a great idea. It was like it was like an easy way, like laces that were rubberized or or elastic size, but it didn't work. But those are mine. Yeah, great, yeah, too funny. I still have Zubit's in my office. If...

...anybody well, maybe one more question then we'll turn it to the groups. You guys be thinking of some questions. But you know, if if you had one or two things for these young people coming out of university to be thinking about, that that that want an entrepreneurial career, you know, one or two pieces of advice you might share with them, I mean my my opinion is the real the real Um, the real advice is. You know, I always advised to go into an industry that you that you know well, if you understand the industry, you understand the space, then you can navigate through. There's nothing worse than actually trying to be an entrepreneur, going into an industry that you don't really know, you know the industry so well, and trying to like disrupt that industry. You know what I mean? I look at I look at a friend of my, you know, my friend Michelle Romano, like when, when, when she gets into a business, you know, she's so specific on the kind of what she looks at or what the actual model is to be able to grow. So I I truly believe like the main thing for entrepreneurs that understand the space and if you don't understand the space, get a mentor to work with you and sort of help you through that space, through that process to understand the different sort of permutations accommodations that need to sort of have to happen within that space. Any questions from the from the Group for Rick? Yeah, okay. So looking back to your first business right before that, people professors, organizations that really change the way that you offer like you kind of looked at them and the Um for yourself. Can we broaden it to mentors as well? Yeah, UM, sure, I mean of course. I mean in part of my whole life, I mean I think every week I try and, you know, meet with someone or talk to someone. I mean I had some great high school professors that were that were great at some great university professors that were fantastic with the law school after the university. So definitely had some some people in that space as well. Um, yeah, I mean, I I think I think you know, once I found the industry. I guess what I would do is I would find sort of find the industry that I would like, like, let's say, in the power space, you know, in the housepace, one of the largest apparel guys in in Canada or the world is Laurence Stroll. So for me, you know, owns Michael Core's own Michael Corps owns asked the Martin today. Um lived right around the corner for me. So for me, you know, spending time with him or going to learn from him or going to learn from people in the industry, to to mentorships to really um shape my understanding of the market and give me ideas and and and conceptualized ideas that were, let's say, different than than the way I would look at things because, you know, I you know, as an entrepreneur, as a as a business leader or as a business owner, and not a leader but as a business owner. You know, I look at everything sort of laser focused in one way, and sometimes that's a really good positive and also quite a big negative between the two. So that the best is to sort of be all around and realize what your limitations are. For me, I know fully what my limitations are. So I know that if I'm gonna build a business, that if I don't have a certain structure or a team that I can hire, work around, you know, it's more, more difficult. Yeah, next question. How do you how creative business structures? How do you figure out who the partners are?...

How is splitting partnership and ownership and how do you resolve conflict between the dark? Start with an easy one. Just put a board up and just flu Um. I mean, I happen to be quite lucky that I'm only like, I've only out of my seven businesses, I've only been in the two my two, my latest businesses them has been with a bunch of partners, but Um, most of them have been with a single partner. Yeah, I mean or myself. I mean I would say the most important thing in any partnership is full communication, and I think that's the most important thing. But you know, resolving conflict, and there's two parts of conflict, like day to day conflicts about the actual operations of the industry or like I hate you as a partner and I need to get you out of my deal and I want you to leave, like those are two very distinct differences. So the second one I would say have an amazing lawyer structure. Shotguns, a million different clauses that you can exit if you have to exit, or figure out what that is. Um if it's Inter day conflict or whatever it is, it's just either bring in mediation or just just be very transparent in your conversations to understand that. That's the hard part. So there's positive to having a partner. You share the risk, you share the reward, you show whatever, but there's also that inner community conflict that could be a little bit difficult. But you know saying if you know, just just always go through with integrity. You know that that's the most important thing. Shady people just don't just they just don't work over time. You know, unfortunately, for sure, Nicole, and the miss part of what you asked or not. If I did just so you reask go, go, like I lose track pretty fast together and shadow between our friends and the two of you were together. Okay, so shady, yeah, over friends. Yeah, friends want to be involved. How do you figure? Probably yeah, simple, simple, I mean it's the way I look at it is like simple. So you have to look at the six fundamentals of of starting the business. So one is like you know purpose, cause, Um, you know all the different sort of permutations of starting the business. Now the question is like do you have cash? You don't have money, like you know, do you bring in a partner because they're a cash partner? Like you have to understand, like when when I when I look at the pizza, like I say this all the time, when you look at the pizza, like you're not making a pizza of just dough. You're not making a pizza just cheese. You're making it with different ingredients. So you have to understand sort of what those ingredients are. What do you bring to the table? What do you bring to the table? What is your partner bring to the table? And what are you missing? You have to be very honest about those things that you're missing, because if you think that you're everything to everybody, which most of you guys probably do in somewhere, like you know, I can, I can, excuse me, I can do it, pent I know what I'm doing, but realistically sometimes you need a little bit of that help.

So when you're choosing a partner or whatever it's, it's if you have a few friends, it's like, well, what do you do? What are you thinking sort of like, especially if they're friends, you can also go back and understand like where they came from, what they're, you know, how they grew up or what they learned or what was their job structure. I deliver newspapers when I was nine years old till I was fourteen, every morning before school started. So I figured out, like not only I figure out how how to sell newspapers, my brother and I every day with our wagons, but we also figured out like how to sub it out to like six other people in the neighborhood too, and also then get, you know, a royalty based on top. You know, there's different ways of doing it. So it's really about partnering with someone who can actually make you greater than what you are today, but understanding what your limitations of greatness are. In my opinion, good lucky guys don't fight, uh in the very back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, I mean I think I think there's two. There's two schools of thought on that. Um, I have a very specific school of thought on that. So most people sit down, they run performance and they'll, you know, go through market structure and, you know, market cap and figure out what they're you know, what it is, and you know, I always look at it like, listen, you know, look at the overall whatever, whatever business it is, look at the overall market that you're in. So whether it was, like, you know, cosmetics or cannabis or selling of chairs, whatever it is, look look at the and once you understand that there's a market, like you have to go with your gut and just roll with it, meaning there's no if you sit down and like I have friends of mine that, a year later, after talking about their startup and their idea, are still like, you know, my financials aren't perfect and you know I'm like I can say openly, like I've done, you know many financials and you know many different performers and and uh, future projections and stuff. It means zero, because sextually it doesn't. You don't really know what's gonna Happen between today and next Friday, let alone be able to map out two years and in two years I'll sell whatever. So it really comes, as I say, innately from your gut. You know, in apparel different in one of the industries there's a lot of competitors and some, in some markets there's no competitors. So there's positive and negatives to that. So if you're alone and you have to roll with no competitors, you have to sort of figure out your own path, whereas you're a loan and there's a lot of competitors, you can use them as guides, their businesses, as guys. So there's different ways, there's different ways of doing it. But but yeah, I mean what I say when when you're looking at a market, you you would convince yourself that the market is big enough here that, if I get it right, there's enough of route. Yeah, you have to have a little bit of that grade, a little bit of like that elasticity, because if you don't have that elasticity, you don't have it, no business is gonna sit down and fit in your box. And realistically, I mean I started off in the footwear business twenty odd years ago. I mean that was not exactly you know, what I thought that I would would be my first my first business to...

...make, you know, super dress shoes and whatever. But that that was kind of the first business because it fell into a market. I analyzed the market. I said, wow, here's the market, here's this. Imagine if we made this at this price. And I found someone that can do that. Huh. I mean this is just to give you an example. This is the four Michael Michael Cores or Michael Cores, like very similar business, I mean to what I had, you know, to figure out that a sort of affordable luxury and where where does that sit? You know, how does that sit? So I knew the market. I know a name. I roll the dice and then slowly, you know, kept reading about it and figuring out my yellow brick road until you figure and hopefully every time you get to a scarecrow or a tin men, you you kind of like have enough of a system around you, of friends, people whatever that can help you navigate through that specific spot, which is Um, which is difficult sometimes, but that's that's yea perfect, perfect there are questions the back. Yeah, Drum, sorry, Um, yeah, so, Um, yeah, I have homes in the U S and I buy a flight pass. No, Um, I mean being in Canada based. It's uh, I would say it's almost some somewhat of an advantage in some way, because it allows you to like come into the come into different, you know, states or province states in the U S. Um and Um, understand the market, figured out, work for business and then actually leave. Um, I haven't had an issue with that at all. Luckily I have good partners in the US, but I haven't had an issue. I I chose Canada just because of kind of where, where I live and the fact that I love living in Canada. But, Um, I mean I don't have any you know, there's there's no negative. There's no negative work being living in Canada and working in the US. If that was the question. There's no, there's no negativity to it. I enjoy it very much because I love I love the travel, I love the knowledge, I love to learn from other people. I like to hear what everybody else is kind of doing, whether it's on a vacation or somewhere. Gives you like sort of a global perspective, whether it's in Europe, Um, you know, or or or in the US, gives you sort of a wider variety of and the more that you travel to meet with clients or people in those different states or cities, sort of see the way different people live and and maybe adds to the adds to the overall function of your of your life based in Canada. But Canada living years is a full another choice for me. M Hm. Yeah. Do you have a particular process they go about for developing like industry? Yeah, so, you know, I do. I have about four people that I work with, Um, that work for me, not not, not partners, Um, that are kind of like, you know, guys that I bounce all my ideas off of, and like two of them are like one of my two of my really good friends, and two of them are when one of my creative director and another good friend of my lives in Maryland. And Uh yeah, my my whole process is like yea, sounds crazy and...

I'm like, Dude, let's just all I get together for four days and I just want to talk about what the Hell we're up to and just talk, talk, talk, until we come to a solution. So there's no real as an entrepreneur, there's no real I want to use algorith there's no real structure. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do this, this, this, I'm gonna you know, and follow any kind of guidelines. But my guidelines are, you know, identify the issue and it's the market big? If it is, okay, great, I love that. So I'll figure out the middle like slowly, kind of like the white part of the Oreo between the two sides. So it's like I look I say, okay, I love this industry and then I say, wow, the industry is really big and it doesn't really have this and then all kind of like slowly take the walls and bring them in where a lot of people will sit and conceptualize and idealize from the top to understand the market and make sure they feel very good about it before they jump in. I'll always make sure that, you know, do I understand the industry? And if I understand the industry, how big is it and like where's the struction happening at this moment? So I'll be able to you know, I look at I look at clear bank. You guys. Find a clear COO for you guys. So I look at clear COO. My friends the CEO of clear COO. So I looked at it. She sat with me in the plane about, I don't know, two years ago before covid she's talking about these two businesses that she invested it. One was called sheer text. If you know a sheer Texas. So how is your company? That doesn't rip period. So she's she's a founder in that. To me I'm like wow, that's amazing. He's like yeah, there'rewo hndrells. I'm like, I don't know what, but I would assume that you know, it's a great model, because I think that's a huge problem and this is a solution, whether it costs too much or you bring it down over time. But the other part was in the direct to consumer business, tell you openly you can't get funding. It's very tough to get funding. So if you if you if you have a business model that you're gonna be selling something online and you have to put out of capital, out of your out of pocket, a hundred thousand dollars to buy this, this, this and this and you have a great turn over every month of of sales, you go to the bank. I mean, I've never had I mean, I go to the bank like this because, I mean, the banks are you. I mean, if this is gonna say the banks don't really help, I'm gonna really sit there and be like, Oh, we love your idea. Used seemed like you know, there's a positive thing. You know we're gonna just based on the fact that you you know, we're gonna give you some money, it doesn't happen. But if you have a directed consumer model and you understand the model and people are buying it and you can show traction clear, Co offers you a financial solution. What they do, just to give you an assumption for you understand, is that the last year, you know, if you do a hundred thousand dollars a month and they know that you do one point two million dollars a year in sales and they know that you can afford ten thousand dollars a month and an interest or however you do, they'll lend you some money to buy your goods and then they do all your payment processing every month and take away at piece every time before they remit the payments you. So it's an office. So I look at it like when she told me the story, like yeah, we're gonna be doing this, this, this. I literally sets a word for work sitting on the plane on my genius, because no one does that. And if I was in that situation, thank God I wasn't, but if I was in that situation in my thirties and I need to build a directed consumer business, I mean all I would be doing is raising, raising, raising diluting, diluting, diluting, and where or this one allows... to actually own it. You have to put seed in yourself, but once you get it to a point that's actually working, you don't have to dilute and sell to anybody else. You actually can get funds from a source in a different way than a normal bike. I'm saying that that just means disruption or in some way like what what you know, some of the opportunities that are out there and in the space you know that are different in direct consumer for when you're reaching out to influencers and celebrities to represent your brand or your product or whatnot. Better analysis, Um, and they email you of what they bring and how much would you take? Uh Uh, what revenue would they bring in that way? And I'm coming out, yeah, talking about yeah, Um, yeah, so I have, I have like a very, very unique approach on this. So I believe that if you actually go, when you meet with the celebrity or influence or anybody, need tell Oh my God, I love what you do, it's amazing. You know, I'd love to hire you or whatever, they just everybody's just gonna hold tight on price. So the angle I always use this like secret rick one on one is I always go in and I'm like I'm like, Oh my God, I love what you do and I sort of tell them what I do in some way and be like, Oh my God, how come you don't have your own brand or your own something? So I always come it from the angle of like, how do I make you money? I might ask you to make me money. How do I make you money? Because it once I make you money, then the authenticity will come out of it. Will be pouring out of it. Once they realize how much money they can make with what we're doing. Then bring it into a business that I'm doing, if that makes sense. So the paid influencer model is a really unless you're a retailer. It's really tough to quantify. I have a friend of mine was just talking about it this morning Um with my brother and uh, you have, you know, an influence of Montreal. She has eighty eight thousand followers, not so big, but eighty thou followers. She has zero, zero return. You give her something, you posted, he gets zero sales. Zero. Then you have another influencer who has kid, you have a hunter. You another one that's fifty thousand followers. Who? Who? If I do a deal with her, she'll do like forty grand this month. You know what I mean. So it's very hard. Everybody thinks that they're better. So I never liked the pain in advance to understand what it was until I actually get some, some sort of quantified date data at the end. So, but I always go in myself and be like, this is what I do, I'd love to do something with you. I think you deserve to have your own brand, you know. So I come from a specific angle and then once I once I get them to understand what I'm doing, then I'm able to say hey, why don't we and then they'll they'll want to do it with they'll want to do it for you with enthusiasm, because the pay as you play model it's a tough one. It's cost unless you have, you know, a lot of money in the bank. Um, you know, I know the CEO boat rocker. You know boat rocker. You should look into boat rocker. It's great, great with the largest production film companies in Toronto here. They just want public. A few years ago, great great group do a lot of Netflix series whatever, but they have a very similar methodology. Um, to what to way.

I to way, I think as well. You know, thanks, you can change and people have for sure. How you which one would be successful? which we need to listen to you. You're kind of like or I mean, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, luckily for me I have a very close knit family between myself my kids, Um, so we talked about it all the time and the fact that they've been involved in my businessess day one. It's about having people around you. I think, when you're talking about gut feeling, that you can actually like many times, I tell you, I many times I've told someone like I feel this idea and they'll be like yeah, I don't know, I'm not I'm not too interested in it, and yeah, I don't think somebody be like okay, and I'd walk away from it two then here a month later, that that guy was like super jealous of the fact that I did this thing or I could have done this deal. So I think it's really about having an inner circle. I think that really makes good sense and being able to to to test your gut feeling, because I can be like I love this, this, this and this, and then like my partner and people call me me like I love this idea, and the guys like yeah, but let me tell you one thing. That like that doesn't work like that in a fashion. Remember, I'm like, Huh, you're right, but if I didn't have that open discussion with him to be able to discussion as like part of my Milia, of my inner circle, you really wouldn't get that sort of response back. So I think it's about bringing the right people around you that can either emphasize the emphasize or make you feel and your gut feeling and help you read what your gut is and you can be expressive to someone about what you're feeling in your gut for someone to help sort of navigate which way for you to go. I've made many times. There's a few gut feel you know, many times I'm mad at myself or doing a deal or getting involved in something or investing in something and having a gut feeling. manytimes someone's like, Oh, this stock is gonna be amazing. It's twenty one, is gonna be fifty bucks, like great, you know, go ahead, put an hundred grand in and give it a shot. It's, you know, six dollars. You know what I mean, like because but your gut feeling was like the water. It was weird, like that's no good. But so it's really about having a great nurse, a great circle of people that you can talk to. You like close people that only want to see you succeed and only want to together, benefit from the success in some way. To keep that to keep that gut together. I don't know that that's the trust, but verified Gut Mosa, I think. Yeah, yeah, you'll stay it better than me. Point. Alright, I want to thank you so much. Perfect any any last thoughts you want to leave with the group before we cut off? Um, yeah, I mean I just I always truly believe in the hustle. So even in today's Day and age, people tell you are so calculating. They're always trying to figure out every little intricacy and make sure everything looks perfect on paper. Nothing looks perfect on paper. Nothing will look per perfect on paper. Learn from your peers like, learn from your teachers, learn from the environment around you. Just go with your gut and roll the dice because and you know, try and mentorship in some way. Um, but go with your gut. If you feel that there's a good market. The only thing you can do is what is fail. Okay, what's gonna Happen? Don't pick up your socks and do it again... so I believe as an entrepreneur, not everybody is meant to be an entrepreneur. There's people are working companies that, people are working businesses. I've person ever had a job in my life. I don't even know. I don't think. I think might be the worst employee personally. Um, but I think that as an entrepreneur it's really just about rolling the dice and and doing some sort of calculated you know, get out there and start right. Get out there, talk to people, learn, ask questions and if you feel you're not getting the right answer, you're asking the wrong person. Keep figuring it out through the snakes and ladders. The Life is an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur in life, I tell you, is snakes and ladders. You go up, you slide down, you figure out. There's no right or wrong. There's no right or wrong. So you just gotta roll the dice and you can email me if you have any questions anytime. So absolute pleasure. Alright, let's thanks. Thank you, supers. Thanks lads. The entrepreneur podcast is sponsored by quantum shift, two thousand and Atole. I'm conn and CLARICI and using the gap healthcare group. To ensure you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player or visit entrepreneurship dot U W O dot c a slash podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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